Is Restoration for a Novice?

The basic work that is needed between a 'concours' example or a 'quite presentable' is not very different, if done correctly. The difference is in the finishing.

I would not buy

Yes, and you could learn to be a brain surgeon...

It seems fairly straightforward to weld a plate over a rusted

You don't just 'add metal' over rot, you need to cut the rot and weld in new metal or replace the complete panel, sill or what ever. You also need to understand how to cut out rot or panels off from structural areas - you can't just hack the thing off without correctly supporting the body shell....

Well I would say, in a word, yes ! Well something like a Midget/Sprite, all very easy to get a banana at the end rather than a straight car....

Chose a car that's sills are not the only things holding the back end to the front in effect...

If you really want to try your hand at restoring and need to learn as you go along, think in terms of a Triumph Herald that has a half decent chassis already. A;though the 13/60n bonnets can be a real pig to set up correctly.

Sorry for being so bunt.

I'd certainly find out if you are capable of learning to weld first - not everyone can. And making a neat job of patching an external panel is perhaps the most difficult thing of all, welding wise.

Welding a patch over a rusty bit is only a short term fix - as the rust will spread to the new panel as it's near impossible to protect it after welding. The rust needs to be cut out so both sides can be painted after the welding.

There are plenty of books around about bodywork repairs on older cars. Practical Classics do several.

But the skills needed to make a decent job are pretty wide ranging - far more so than for mechanical stuff, IMHO.

Paul ( snipped-for-privacy@zetnet.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Everybody's got to start somewhere.

And that's the right attitude.

In the same way as inner sills should be - by removing the weak rotten metal and replacing with new.

The guidelines for a successful first restoration are to pick a vehicle that's well known, that's easy to restore, and that has good parts support. So Midgets seem like a fair bet.

I suggest you read these for starters - you'll probably find them in the library

Lindsay Porter / Haynes "Classic Car Restoration"

"Practical Classics on Midget and Sprite Restoration "

I think there's also a book by Lindsay Porter on restoring MGBs (which are very similar) and it's a better book.

Remember that restoring a Midget is _not_ anything new. Every problem you encounter has already been addressed and solved, so you're not alone out there. There's always a clear answer for "what to do next", you just have to look for it. Pick something awkward (even just de-rusting the front inner of an Alfasud) and you're scratching your head on your own.

As an example, you _don't_ "just weld a patch on" over an inner sill. You learn to MIG weld, you get the right replacement panel, and you weld the entire piece on exactly where it's meant to go. I can't remember for Midgets, but there's an infamous bodge on MGBs at the rear end of the sill - the right way, or the wrong way that makes the car crack after a year or two. All this stuff is described in huge detail, so long as you're after a mainstream car.

Nightschool welding classes are a great idea too. Not expensive, and you'll get your hands on real kit - don't be seduced by shiny boxes in Machine Mart, learn what a real welder is first (S/H industrials are often a better bet).

BTW - new cars are cheap. You'll quite probably spend the same money as would buy you a brand new Euromotor Squitbox. This is a hobby as much about doing the work, and a little about driving it afterwards, as it is about cars themselves. The days of when I was a student and "weld your own cheap transport" just aren't economic any more.

Absolutely agree.

Not sure that I'd recommend starting on a Herald. Trouble is, the body to chassis mounts will almost certainly need replacing and should be done before removing the body from the chassis to avoid alignment problems later. This is quite fiddly and involves lots of welding upside down, though it can be tidied up once the body is removed.

Instead I'd suggest starting with a more conventional saloon, but of a type with a particularly rigid body. Eg. Morris Minors are good at retaining their shape while the sills rot away, though the complex sill structure can be a bit daunting. They also have the advantage of being cheap and plentiful, so it's no great disaster to abandon the project should things go seriously wrong - just don't buy in too many parts before they're needed.

It might be worth mentioning that lots of patience is needed, even to the extent of only getting to your chosen car a few years down the line once enough experience has been gained.

You will never repair a body just by replacing with patches.

the structural rigidity is in good panels - and a proper job would be to weld in new panels which are readily available. Also its easier to weld in new panels or parts there of.

This does not mean you have a concourse car but something structurally sound.

It should not be beyond you if you are keen to make a go if it. A suggestion would be to cut/grind the rust and fit up new pieces and have someone competent weld them in with a mig welder. rm

Except that the design of the body makes it one of the more difficult body shells to keep straight as there is little more holding the back end to the front than the sills which are bond to need to be replaced (cut off) and the danger of a miss aligned body shell.

But it will be new to the OP, he has not done anything like this before....

Every problem

Yes he is, or are you offering to go around his house as and when ?...

There's always a clear answer for "what to do next",

There is no clear answers, every car is different in how they have corroded, stressed and possibly bent due to weakness - it's all to easy to weld up a car that is as miss aligned as it was before (this is even more the case on a 'soft-top' car like the Midget), no clear answers can be given by other unless they can see and inspect the shell.

You mean where people don't cut the bottom of the rear quarter / wing off to allow the full sill to be replaced, rather than just putting in what can be seen.

The first thing you need to do is learn to weld (unless you have bottomless pockets and can pay someone else to do it!). It takes a lot of practice to get right, but set yourself high standards and the results can be really rewarding.

_Never_ weld plates over rusted metal. It will just continue to rot from behind. In fact it takes more work to undo bodges like this than to do the job properly the first time. - a point to bear in mind when selecting your resto candidate! Outer sills, in general, are simply replaced. By and large they're cheap enough, and in any case they usually need to come off to properly repair the inner sills.

I only ever use filler for surface finishing, never to bridge holes or cover rot. My last tin of filler lasted four years! When you can weld well you will be able to cut out a rusted section of bodywork and butt-weld in a new section. Before finally painting my A40 I spotted two tiny blemishes in the paintwork, but I knew what that meant... I was able to poke a screwdriver through as those blemished start as rust from inside. My answer? drill a 10mm hole (or enough to take out the rotten bit) and weld a patch in. Surface fill only to get it flat. We're talking about £300 each for wings here!

Where necessary, yes. But only a bit at a time, and in the case of a Spridget, making sure the body is braced so that the door gaps end up the same size as they started!

Carzy, yes, but only as crazy as I was four years ago when I started my A40. I could weld, but car body welding is a different art altogether, and I learnt to do a pretty good job of that. I've only just completed the A40, but in the meantime I've done two Elfs and part of the work on several others! If you're crazy enough to start you need to be committed to it. It can be addictive (see list in Sig!) It can be frustrating. But finishing cars to a high standard can be rewarding too.

Always remember you will never make money from it; you will like as not spend more than the car is worth. I've spent twice as much on my A40 as I paid for it, and the total is more than its value. I am in profit on both Elfs though! :-)

I'm told that Spridgets can be tricky in places, but I think that's made up for by the high parts and knowledge availbility. Join a Club before you start, you'll get lots of support. Search the web for the type of car you're interested in and no doubt you'll find lots of useful websites.

And there are a lot of helpful people in here, they helped get me started. Welcome to the world of restoration!

There are quite a few evening classes and seminars on metalwork. Worth a look - I think the evening classes, run by your local education authority are either free or very cheap. Try your local library for info.

And may I genuinely wish you all the best. The classic world needs people like you, who have a vision and aren't afraid to learn new trades.

Geoff MacK

Much sound advice from others, especially about the problem of keeping a Midget aligned properly. They really do rust _everywhere_, and even ones that don't look too bad at first could well have some extremely tricky areas, like round the rear spring front shackles, and inside the big trapezoidal box section behind the seats.

Two suggestions:

Try and have a drive in one before you spend years working on one. To some, they're the most fun you can have with your clothes on; to others they're noisy, slow, uncomfortable, and uncivilised.

Consider an "abandoned restoration". You may find one that someone has spent a fortune on, bought all the expensive little bits, and even done all the welding before losing interest. It's not easy when a car's in cardboard boxes knowing whether it's all there, but at least Spridget bits are all available, and plenty of books (especially the superb, free Moss Catalogue) show where they all fit.

Three suggestions

Consider buying a completely rusty heap and a Heritage body shell. Not the cheapest route, but you could finish up with a very good car. A good approach if you like oily bits more than sharp rusty bits, but it takes up a lot of room.

Four suggestions

Do an MGB instead. No harder to do, and worth a lot more when they're done.

Oh - make that 5.

Avoid rubber bumper cars.

Hi Paul, Plenty of good advice so far. Can I add that a complete wreck is unlikely to be more work than the kind of acr you're considering. With a complete wreck you at least have an idea of what you're getting into, the middle-ground is populated by cars held together by filler and often no more structurally sound than the basket cases.

My own first project was a 1973 Midget. After completing the bodywork on one side (not a bad job even if I say so myself), it was sold on as an unfinished project. I realised that having a 48" chest was enough to make any Midget an uncomfortable driving experience (no room for shoulders). I had also discovered what a difficult car I had chosen as my first project! The construction of the shell is quite crude and with a sill removed there is very little to align to. Ironically, cars with a more complex structure are often easier in terms of alignment, though there an ultimately increased restoration workload. Having said that, pick a project that appeals to you, don't just go for what other people tell you is a worthwhile choice. If the end product holds no appeal to you, you're far more likely to quit before the job's done. You are capable of anything if you have enough motivation to learn... When you've decided what you're going to buy, join a relevant owners club BEFORE buying the car. This is when you'll get the most benefit from any club. Cheers, Bill.

No, to an inexperienced person it is the easies way of buying a load of trouble, the project could have been abandoned for all sorts of reasons and the possible real reason might never be mentioned buy the seller - they have frigged up the welding and the shell is not straight anymore...

IMO it would be better for a novice (in the case of a Midget) to buy a total rust bucket than something that someone else has abandoned with unknown faults 'built in', if the shell is to far gone you have an option to either strip the shell and sell off the parts (thus getting a few quid back) or purchasing a new shell as you go on to suggest.

Two and a half working bays are allowed for when doing a re-shell in the trade, one for the old shell to be stripped, another for the new shell to be built up and half a bay for the parts that have to be removed but can't be fitted until other parts have been. It is possible to use less space, but that means stripping the old shell - OK if you know the car inside out and have a good memory....

They have their own problems, in some ways they are more involved, especially at the back end of the sills - rear quarters are not as easy to fit as some think, and they often need to be replaced (in full or in part) to deal with the sill structures.

It might be worth mentioning here that the FIRST item of bodywork (on any car) that should be replaced or repaired when repairing sills are the doors, then re-hang onto the car, gap everything with the repaired door IYSWIM - it's far easier to build the car around the door gap than try to get a door to fit a wrong sized hole.....

That is just snobbery, but I do agree.....! :~)

Thanks very much indeed to everyone for some *extremely* useful and comprehensive advice. I think I got the message that welding a plate over rust damage is not considered 'de rigueur' :-).

I also was completely unaware that the Sprdget shell could be so easily misaligned by poor support or repair.

As for working on something simpler, I think it needs to be something I really like - I'm sure Moggies and Heralds are more easily worked on but they just don't do it for me. I was driving around in a BRG MkIV Sprite thirty years ago to the month, and loved it.

I will certainly join a club, and I had wondered about offering my services to an experienced restorer - they get someone who will do donkey work for nothing, and I get to look and learn. So if there's anyone listening in East Essex...

I did learn to gas weld once, and I have tried to find a college that runs a course on arc/MIG welding, but to no avail :-(. So I either find someone who can teach me, or teach myself.

So, I consider myself the wiser. I shall no doubt be back when I take the plunge.

Thanks again,

Paul.

They raised the ride height which effects the handling.

Yes. I've tried to find one within reasonable distance and can't - and I live in London. ;-)

The message from snipped-for-privacy@zetnet.co.uk (Paul) contains these words:

ISTR that some Institute in Colchester was running car restoration classes long before most FE colleges got in on the act. Can't recall any details though.

This might be some help.

I would agree; "abandoned restoration" is, _very_ occasionally good value. More often than not though it's been bodged up, and like I said before, it's more work undoing someone else's bodges than working from scratch. Given the choice, I'd always take the untouched rotbox over the partly-restored car.

Hey, if you can gas weld and have the kit, do it that way. Some consider it better; many top professionals gas-weld because the weld is not so hard and can be planished flat with a hammer, rather than relying so heavily on the grinder!