Most Big Suv/Truck owners deserve what they're they're paying at the gas pump

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Well, if everyone else drove the new 2009 Smart Car Hybrid, then there'd be so much excess gasoline, that they'd have to reduce the price to $1.00 a gallon because of weak demand. The scary thing is
that with all those 18 wheelers and busses on the road, the Smart Car Hybrid just doesn't seem safe enough unless EVERYONE else drove one of these 75mpg micro hybrids. That's why I'd probably get a Camry Hybrid for my next car because it's far safer than any big suv, but it gets 40 MPG in the city. The thing that makes bigger cars and SUVs less safe is that they're VERY BAD at accident avoidance.
By your reasoning, a motorcycle is safer than any car. They are much more maneuverable, and can stop much more quickly. Most of us, however, rely more on our brains so that we don't have to rely so heavily on our reflexes. Or the agility of our vehicles. Obviously, you don't.
Dave
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Hairy wrote:

That's incorrect on two counts, IMHO:
1) Even if automobiles were the only use of crude oil, crude oil costs more than $42 a barrel to get of out the ground, refine, and deliver to gas stations.
2) In the US, crude oil products are used for lubricants, heating, generating electricity, moving cargo (18 wheelers, trains) and other things. The US is only about 10% of the world oil market. So, even if all cars were suddenly hybrids (or plug-in hybrids) in the US, the overall (i.e., world) demand for crude oil would not go down much.

The same can be said for bigger cars (like Toyota Echos, Ford Kas and Escorts) as well as small 2-seaters, like little Triumph TRx's.
However, even in countries, like those of Europe, where they have both buses and trucks and the small cars, I don't hear much about lots of deaths in the cars.

What reasoning? It helps if you quote part of the old article when replying to it.

Considering the stupid decisions people make, like having kids when they are 14 and smoking, it is clear that brains are not great at making decisions.

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wrote:

Brains are good at making decisions but the problem is that people aren't using them. Temptation and fun seem to overshadow using brains and/or good judgment. I speak from experience having raised teenagers recently and seeing their friends.
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I couldn't find anything about a Smart Car "Hybrid" that gets 75 mpg. There's a rumored all-electric version that gets whatever mpg it took to produce the juice to recharge it (10 hours for 120 mile range with a 3000W charger).
There's a conventional hybrid that gets around 55 mpg: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/smart_crosstown.php
Note in the article there are other concepts, including a hybrid diesel that supposedly gets 81 mpg. None of the above is for sale yet.
The currently available gas engine Smart Car gets around 40 mpg. I was parked next to one at a local car show a few weeks back (the owner claimed it was the first one sold in the state of Indiana and we talked for quite a while) and that's what he says he's getting in real-world combined city/highway driving.
http://www.greencar.com/features/smart-car /
AJM '93 40th Anniversary coupe, 6 sp (observed 16 city, 27 highway, occasional spirited driving)
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(Do you need a hybrid to get mega-mileage? Well, maybe not. Mercedes-Benz says that its new smart fortwo cdi - an 1800 pound, 106 inch long car with a top speed of 85 mph - gets nearly 80 mpg. For perspective, consider that driving this two-passenger car 10,000 miles annually requires only 16 fill-ups during the course of the year. Amazing. Plus, along the way the smart fortwo's 45-horsepower, three-cylinder diesel engine emits less carbon dioxide per mile than any current production car.)
around 80 MPG http://www.greencar.com/features/smart_fortwo /
In production 2 hour total charge 120 mile range... also gas over electric over 100 mpg... http://www.aptera.com /
I still like my Vette... Maybe I can make it run on water...LOL http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=watertt
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engines. In California, the polution of a gasoline powered vehicle is measured by the amount of particulates, CO2 and NOX per mile, yet diesel engine powered vehicles are measured by those same quantaties per gallon of diesel burned. There is no way a small, efficient, diesel powered vehicle will be approved by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), despite the fact that it may produce less polution per mile as compared to the same vehicle powered by gasoline.
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If you had followed the thread, you'd know that the first paragraph in my post "was" the quoted material. I have no idea why it wasn't identified as such.
Dave
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Don't forget that crude oil is also refined to make durable goods made with "petrochemicals" (aka plastics - a very large catagory), without which, our modern society wouldn't be possible. Could you build a computer, microwave oven, or reclining chair, without the use of petrochemicals? Sure, but they would be a lot more expensive and consume a heck of a lot more power (even the recliner would require more power to build without plastics). Could you build a car which carries two people and gets 50 MPG without petrochemicals? Probably, but it wouldn't meet today's safety standards.
With time, we can replace petroleum as an energy source, but I don't think we can replace it as an ingredient in all the things we use on a daily basis.

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And then think of "The Graduate": "plastics"!
Cathy

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On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:21:11 -0400, Cathy F. wrote:

Plastics can be easily synthesized. Live anywhere near Selkirk or Waterford?
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Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:

What would be the raw ingredients?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:17:18 -0400, Bill Putney wrote:

Well, I was a tech support guy helping people with their computers. All that chemical stuff throws me, and GE probably has some patents they wouldn't want divulged...if I knew anything.
All I really know for sure is that in order to make Lexan, you need fosgene gas, and they put it smack in the middle of the narrow end of Tornado Alley...
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Cathy F. wrote:

Koo Koo Katchu...
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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;-)
"Mrs. Robinson" was originally "Mrs. Roosevelt" (as in Eleanor) - the song had already been started, but was changed in mid-writing for the movie.
Cathy
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Look at the Crash Test Ratings for a Camry vs any SUV dude. How many SUVs have a 10% or less chance of a rollover in a crash? http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid=c95df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=653
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=686
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Sal, get a real world clue. If your Camry has a head-on with my Yukon, I'm glad I'm driving the Yukon. Regards, JR Apologies for cross posting this crap to the truck groups.
wrote:

Look at the Crash Test Ratings for a Camry vs any SUV dude. How many SUVs have a 10% or less chance of a rollover in a crash? http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid É5df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?ide3
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?idh6
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True, but rollover accidents are among the most dangerous, according to people who actually know these things (NY State Police, for instance).
wrote:

http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid É5df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD
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drones.......
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Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
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wrote:

Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
This is an interesting study. I wonder if you even read it. To quote from page 2. **** None of the 15 vehicles with the lowest driver death rates is a small model. In contrast, 11 of the 16 vehicles with the highest death rates are mini or small models, and none is large or very large.
Among all types and sizes of cars, the smallest 4-door models have the highest driver death rate at 148 per million registered vehicle years. Next highest among cars is 137 in mini 2-door models. Midsize (33) and very large (34) luxury cars have the lowest rates.
There are exceptions to the general rule that bigger is safer. For example, the driver death rate is higher in midsize sports cars (115 per million) than in mini (107) or small (71) ones.
Another exception is very large 4-wheeldrive SUVs. This group is mostly Ford Excursions, which have a driver death rate of 115 per million - higher than the death rates in large 4-wheel-drive SUVs and higher than in all but 4 of the midsize and small counterparts.
**** end of quote.
Another example is the comparison of the 10 cars you claim are safer than a Yukon. When one looks at the death rate in multiple vehicle accidents one will see that, in order from best to worst it is the GMC Yukon XL (with a very low rate of only 6 per million vehicle registered years), VW Jetta (30), VW Golf (31), Saturn Ion (38), GMC Yukon (43), Nissan Sentra and Toyota Carolla (both 46), Honda Civic (47), Toyota Echo (53), Volvo S40 (62) and the Hyundai Elantra and Hyundai Spectra (both at 64).
When one includes the single vehicle accidents and single vehicle rollover accidents, then the statistics support your claim. I submit that while some single vehicle accidents (including rollovers) may be caused by unexpected road conditions like a dog running into traffic, or a rock falling off a truck, most are the result of driver error - either driving too fast for road conditions, or inattention. Examination of the statistics suggests to me big SUVs are indeed safer than small cars provided the driver is aware of the limitations of the big SUV and adjusts accordingly.
Finally, this study only looked at accidents in which the driver was killed. It did not include accidents in which the driver suffered a life threatening injury, but received medical attention in a timely fashion, received severe, moderate, or minor injuries, or suffered no injuries what-so-ever. Furthermore, it does not examine what happens when 2 similar or dissimilar vehicles collide. For instance when 2 Mini Coopers, 2 Ford Excursions, or a Mini Cooper and a Ford Excursion collide.
Your conclusion that "All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon." just does not pan out given a true examination of the statistics and the narrow scope of this study.
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