Most Big Suv/Truck owners deserve what they're they're paying at the gas pump

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Try comparing death per 100,000 passenger miles and get back to us LOL
wrote:


Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
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wrote:

How about you post your stats & source to back up your conjecture.
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Read the study Sal posted. A quote from page 2 reads as follows:
*** start of quote None of the 15 vehicles with the lowest driver death rates is a small model. In contrast, 11 of the 16 vehicles with the highest death rates are mini or small models, and none is large or very large.
Among all types and sizes of cars, the smallest 4-door models have the highest driver death rate at 148 per million registered vehicle years. Next highest among cars is 137 in mini 2-door models. Midsize (33) and very large (34) luxury cars have the lowest rates.
There are exceptions to the general rule that bigger is safer. For example, the driver death rate is higher in midsize sports cars (115 per million) than in mini (107) or small (71) ones.
Another exception is very large 4-wheeldrive SUVs. This group is mostly Ford Excursions, which have a driver death rate of 115 per million - higher than the death rates in large 4-wheel-drive SUVs and higher than in all but 4 of the midsize and small counterparts.
*** end of quote.
It is a limited statistical study, which only evaluates collisions in which the driver of a particular make and model of a vehicle died.

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So Midsize Luxury cars had a lower death rate than large luxury cars, or ANY OTHER TYPES OF VEHICLES in the report. It just goes to show you that you get to a point where the accident avoidance capabilities(handling, braking, rollover resistence, etc are more important than size). The Infinity G35 was safer than any SUV made in the HISTORY OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. It just goes to show you that Midsize Luxury cars are the safest size vehicles out there. It's just that midsize luxury cars have stuff like side impact and curtain airbags, vehicle stability control, tire pressure monitoring, A pillar, B pillar, C pillar, and door reinforcement, 4 Channel ABS, Dynamic Headrests, etc standard, while moderately priced midsized cars either have those features as options, or don't offer them at all.
The average death rate of a Midsize Luxury car was 33 DPMRVY, Very Large four wheel drive SUVs, 76, Very Large four wheel drive pickups 89. The SUVs are safer than cars MYTH is the BIGGEST LIE sinice IRAQ had WMDs in the 21st century, IRAQ was behind 9/11, and that the Iraq war will make the world a safer more stable place.
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wrote:

So Midsize Luxury cars had a lower death rate than large luxury cars, or ANY OTHER TYPES OF VEHICLES in the report. It just goes to show you that you get to a point where the accident avoidance capabilities(handling, braking, rollover resistence, etc are more important than size). The Infinity G35 was safer than any SUV made in the HISTORY OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. It just goes to show you that Midsize Luxury cars are the safest size vehicles out there. It's just that midsize luxury cars have stuff like side impact and curtain airbags, vehicle stability control, tire pressure monitoring, A pillar, B pillar, C pillar, and door reinforcement, 4 Channel ABS, Dynamic Headrests, etc standard, while moderately priced midsized cars either have those features as options, or don't offer them at all.
****start of rant*** The average death rate of a Midsize Luxury car was 33 DPMRVY, Very Large four wheel drive SUVs, 76, Very Large four wheel drive pickups 89. The SUVs are safer than cars MYTH is the BIGGEST LIE sinice IRAQ had WMDs in the 21st century, IRAQ was behind 9/11, and that the Iraq war will make the world a safer more stable place. ****end of rant****
Rather than reply to what I posted in this tread at 5:29 PDT on 6/14/08 you decide to go off your own topic and rant about Irag. Your rant reveals much.
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Sal turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

Dude, I don't know what your beef with midsize SUV's is. I have an Avalanche midsize and find it very safe.
Keep in mind - those people who may drive larger SUV's also take them in places they shouldn't.
I've been driving a truck/suv for 17 out of my 21 years driving. I know they may rollover more than a car and therefore I don't take corners like a car.
I know that my 6,000 lb Avalanche doesn't stop as fast as a sub-compact Camry so I stay back farther.
It is simple common sense.
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What conjecture?
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Sorry Sal, you want real world? Here it is. I spent 18 years working the dirty end of an ambulance. In my REAL WORLD experience bigger and heaver wins almost EVERY time. Say what you THINK, I KNOW what I SAW. Regards, JR
wrote:

Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
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Rollover accidents are a major cause of deaths in SUV accidents. While I agree older SUVs are more prone to rollover than cars, driver experience (or rather lack of experience) is also a major issue in these sorts of crashes. More recent SUVs have lower centers of gravity and incorporate electronic stability control I suspect if you come back in 3 years, you will see that 2008-2011 SUVs are doing much much better in the driver deaths per million registered vehicle statistics. Sometime when you take off the "I hate SUV blinders" and look at roll over statistics, you will see that one of the vehicles with the highest death rate do to roll over accidents is the last generation of Chevrolet Camaros.......explain that. I'll help you, teenagers are over five times as likely to be involved in a rollover accident as are 35 year old drivers. Teenage male drivers are way more likely to be involved in rollover accidents than females. Who drives Camaros....and SUVs in disproportionate numbers?

Yet the 2003-02005 Yukon has an injury loss rating of only 56 (lower is better), while the 2003-2005 Camry has an injury loss rating of 110 (100 is average).

THe injury loss rating for a Mini Cooper is not listed (too few sold in the period). The injury loss rating for the 2003-2005 Civic 4 door is 150.

The 2003-2005 Excursion has an injury loss rating of 74. A 2003-2005 Accord has an injury loss rating of 129. The 2003-2005 Volvo S80 has an injury loss rating of 76 (well at least it is almost as good as an Excursion).

And yet the insrance industry gives it an injury loss rating significantly lower than average. Explain that if it is so dangerous.

2003-2005 Injury loss ratings of these vehicles:
Toyota Echo - 189 Volkwagen Golf - 94 Honda Civic (4door) - 150 Toyota Corolla - 159 Volvo S40 - not listed Kia Spectra - 198 Hyundai Elantra - 161

By what measurement? Driver deaths per million registered vehciles? Insurance companies don't agree with you. The Yukon has a far lower injury loss rating than any of the vehicles you claimed to be safer.

As I pointed out before, this is a highly misleading study. It is based on driver deaths per number of registered vehicles. It does not factor in miles driven at all. So vehicles that are driven very few miles per year can look very good, while vehicles that are on average driven many miles per year can look very bad. The injury loss ratings are a little better, but they also suffer from the same problem (no attempt to factor in miles driven or driver experience).
Ed
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wrote:

Injury rates are MINOR compared to Death rates. Besides, even cars that really aren't that safe such as the Porsche 911 coupe and Porsche 911 convertible have LOWER injury rates than ANY SUV in the HISTORY OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. They have injury rates of 35 and 36. A Ford Excursion has an injury rate of 71. It just goes to show you that ACCIDENT AVOIDANCE is VERY VERY important. A Porsche 911 GT2 can go from 60 to 0 mph in 98 feet, take a turn at 120mph and not roll over. How bout those so called safe SUVs? So much for your theory. The truth is that SUVs are NOT and never were safer. Some people have legit reasons for SUVs like people with boats, horse trailers, jobs that require it, going on a safari, etc. Unfortunately many people only buy SUVs to make up for their inadequacies. I did a year of research trying to buy the safest vehicle for my money when gas was still cheap and NO SUV in my price range ever made the cut, they were all too dangerous compared to the safest cars when combining all important factors such as death rates, crash tests, injury rates, and accident avoidance(rollover resistence, 60-0 MPH, 0-60 MPH, slalom speed, skidpad gs rating, etc).
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You can rant and rave and twist statistics all you want. However, if you could be honest with yourself, you would admit, given drivers of equivalent skill, and when rated according to deaths per vehicle mile, SUVs are probably safer than cars. Cherry pickings statistics for very expensive cars that are most likely driven by experienced,older drivers and probably driven fewer miles per year than average vehicles does not prove that cars are safer than SUVs. But you know that - otherwise you wouldn't be so careful to pick vehicles that make your case look good.
Ed
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You make some excellent points but you overlooked one or just avoided pointing it out.
He said he researched it for over a year, said nothing about driving for a year. All of what he is telling us he has picked up from paper, not the asphalt of driving life.
Personally I've been in 3 accidents, one on a Harley, the others in American made cars, only the first was my fault in 61 years and over 2 million miles of driving. All minor injuries the worst being broken ribs when broad sided pushing my left elbow into my rib cage. I was hit square in the drivers door at 55 miles per hour. Sore for a while but didn't miss work or any other activities I had planed. Damage to my car was repaired in less than 2 weeks and was never again an issue in any way. Hit by a light car in the side of a Toronado, his car went to the junk yard.
Last weekend my grandson drove us to the NASCAR race at MIS with driving savvy that was very impressive, he's 15 and it was his first trip out of town. His dad was more visibly up tight than I think I was when he first drove. My point is that this young man is on top of his driving game, not impressed by what car makers/people say about cars but into doing not just a good job of driving but an excellent one.
Sal on the other hand is out to make his point the only point, he's right and don't you forget it. In fact he may be to some extent but his aggressive, negative, and off topic posts are just to gain attention. My guess would be that his driving style won't deviate to much from being similar.
He reminds me of the old story.......
One day I hopped in a taxi and we took off for the airport. We were driving in the right lane when suddenly a black car jumped out of a parking space right in front of us. My taxi driver slammed on his breaks, skidded, and missed the other car by just inches! The driver of the other car whipped his head around and started yelling at us. My taxi driver just smiled and waved at the guy. And I mean, he was really friendly.
So I asked, "Why did you just do that? This guy almost caused an accident and sent us to the hospital!" This is when my taxi driver taught me what I now call, "The Law of the Garbage Truck."
He explained that many people are like garbage trucks. They run around full of garbage, full of frustration, full of anger, full of disappointment and rage. As their garbage piles up, they need a place to dump it and sometimes they'll dump it on you. Don't take it personally. Just smile, wave, wish them well, and move on. Don't pick up their garbage and spread it to other people in your life, whether at work, at home, or to people that you don't even know on the streets.
Always remember that good people do not let garbage trucks take over their day. Life's too short to wake up in the morning with regrets, so.....
"Love the people who treat you right and forgive and pray for the ones who don't."
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Wanna bet he and the others, like our friend Jeff, who choose to believe small cars are safer are people that can not afford to buy and operate an SUV?
Wanna bet the vehicles they own are small cars that they bought used or a small car they bought new but have owned for many years?
It is called envy ;)

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I never said small cars are safer, I said out of all the vehicle segments, Midsize Luxury cars are the safest vehicles overall. I was just saying that some SUVs are so dangerous that even small cars are safer than them. The fact that The Hummer H2 and the Ford Excursion have MUCH MUCH higher death and injury rates than the safest cars just goes to show you that Size alone doesn't buy you safety. When an 18 wheeler is about to t-bone you, it's much better to be in a 2008 V6 Accord or a 2008 V8 Volvo S80 than in an Excursion or Hummer H2. at least the cars accelerate themselves out of trouble while the SUVs can't. Answer me this, HOW many SUVs have 25 out of 25 stars in the 5 NHTSA crash tests? The answer is 0. There are many cars that get 5 stars in all 5 categories, but NO SUVS EVER DO. Here's just one of the dozens of cars that got 25 out of 25 stars in the crash tests. http://tinyurl.com/2wawr8 Can any of the so called SAFE SUV owners even find ONE SUV that has 25 out of 25 stars in the NHTSA crash test ratings?
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The statistics you are using take no account of driver skill or miles driven. Midsize luxury cars are primarily owned by richer, older drivers, who on average, are likely to be much safer drivers. Even with this disparity, SUVs and Luxury cars have very similar injury loss histories (see http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/fact_sheets/personal_injury_coverage_04to06.pdf and http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/fact_sheets/med_payment_coverage_04to06.pdf ) .

This is not a true statement.
Injury loss rating for the 2003-2005 Ford Excursion is 74, well below average for all vehicles. The injury loss rating for the 2003-2005 H2 Hummer is 61. These ratings are better than the majority of cars (small, medium, large, luxury, etc.). There are cars with better ratings, but most are worse and many are far worse. The very safest car in the 2003-2005 injury loss ratings is the Audi Allroad Quattro wagon 4WD with a 45 injury loss rating. Admittedly this is much better than the Excursion, but it is also much better than the following cars (model / injury loss rating):
Cadillac STS 4dr 2WD/4WD 74 Mercedes E class 4dr 76 Volvo S80 4dr 76 105 Lexus GS series 4dr 79 Lincoln LS 4dr 79 BMW 5 series 4dr 84 Cadillac CTS 4dr 98 Infiniti G35 4dr 4WD 72 BMW 3 series conv 72 BMW 3 series 4dr 4WD 75 Saab 9-3 conv 77 Acura TL series 4dr 77 Lexus ES series 4dr 80 Mercedes CLK class 2dr 80 Mercedes CLK class conv 81 Infiniti G35 2dr 86 Infiniti G35 4dr 88 Volvo S60 4dr 88 Mercedes C class 4dr 4WD 90 BMW 3 series 2dr 91 Volvo S60 4dr 4WD 91 BMW M3 2dr 95 BMW 3 series 4dr 99 Jaguar X-Type 4dr 4WD 104 Mercedes C class 2dr 108 Mercedes C class 4dr 114 Lexus IS 300 4dr 123
How does this fit in with your claim that Large SUVs are more dangerous than luxury cars?

So I should get a Mustang 500KR? Just how often do you think this sort of scenario happens?
2007 Volvo S80: 0-60 8.6 Sec 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe: 0-60 9.0 sec 2007 Expedition LE: 0-60 9.1 Sec (they no longer sell Excursions, the EL Expedition is the replacement) 2008 Accord V-6: 0-60 7.4 2008 Accord I-4: 0-60 9.8
So using your theory, the V6 accord is the safest vehicle in this list and the I-4 Accord is the least safe? Do you really think if an 18 wheeler is bearing down on you the difference in acceleration between the Volvo and Tahoe will determine whether or not you get out of the way? I could make the argument that the higher driving position of the SUV gives you a better chance of seeing the 18 wheeler coming, giving you a lot more time to get out of the way.

There are not five NHTSA "CRASH" tests. It is bad enough when you cherry pick statistics, but now you are just making them up out of thin air. There are four crash tests (Front Driver, Front Passenger, Side Driver, Side Rear Passenger). There is also a rollover rating, but this is most definitely is not a CRASH test. There are many SUVs that get five stars in the four crash tests. There are no SUVs that get five stars in the rollover rating, but this is to be expected. All things being equal, taller vehicles will rollover sooner than lower vehicles - simple physics. Despite this, there are many SUVs with four star rollover ratings and actually the majority of cars also have four star rollover ratings (see http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/ and look for yourself).

Define "many." The majority of cars don't get five stars in the four crash test and in the rollover rating. So although there are no SUVs with 5 stars in all the NHTSA rating categories, there are not that many cars that do so either. In fact out of 243 2008 passenger cars listed in the NHTSA database there are only two 2008 passenger cars that get five five star ratings:
2008 Acura RL 4-DR. w/SAB 2008 Lincoln Town Car 4-DR. w/SAB

I looked at 2008 Models, and there were only the two I mentioned above.

Your link does not work. It takes me to the same NHTSA site (safercar.org, but says "Sorry, this feature is currently unavailable"). Perhaps you were sending me to the comparison chart that shows that most cars only get four stars in the rollover rating?

No vehicle has 25 out of 25 stars in NHTSA "CRASH" test ratings, since there are only four "CRASH" test ratings. Many SUVs have 24 out of 25 stars in the four crash test ratings plus the rollover rating. Most cars don't have as many as 24 out of 25 stars in these ratings.
It is fine with me that you don't like SUVs. Many people don't. Don't buy one. But you should miss state facts in an effort to paint a false picture. Whether you like it or not, your chances of being injured in an average SUV or less than your chances of being injured in an average car (by average, I don't mean an average Porsche, Lexus, or Mercedes).
Ed
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If what you believe were actually true the insurance companies would charge higher rates for SUV, when in fact the rate on the average small FWD cars are AS HIGH as or HIGHER than the average RWD car or SUV.
I.E. my one son pays $200 more a year to insure his Focus than his Grand Marquis

Injury rates are MINOR compared to Death rates. Besides, even cars that really aren't that safe such as the Porsche 911 coupe and Porsche 911 convertible have LOWER injury rates than ANY SUV in the HISTORY OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. They have injury rates of 35 and 36. A Ford Excursion has an injury rate of 71. It just goes to show you that ACCIDENT AVOIDANCE is VERY VERY important. A Porsche 911 GT2 can go from 60 to 0 mph in 98 feet, take a turn at 120mph and not roll over. How bout those so called safe SUVs? So much for your theory. The truth is that SUVs are NOT and never were safer. Some people have legit reasons for SUVs like people with boats, horse trailers, jobs that require it, going on a safari, etc. Unfortunately many people only buy SUVs to make up for their inadequacies. I did a year of research trying to buy the safest vehicle for my money when gas was still cheap and NO SUV in my price range ever made the cut, they were all too dangerous compared to the safest cars when combining all important factors such as death rates, crash tests, injury rates, and accident avoidance(rollover resistence, 60-0 MPH, 0-60 MPH, slalom speed, skidpad gs rating, etc).
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wrote:

FYI - Collision rates are primarily based on the cost of repair. That does not have any correlation to car size. The driver's experience is an overall parameter against the rates. The likelihood of a particular car being in an accident is a minor factor except in the cases of cars known to be driven aggressively.
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