July issue Car & Driver, Ethanol

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To those who aren't subscribers, you should pick up a copy of July's Car & Driver and read their story "The False Promise of Ethanol."
Their E-85 test vehicle gets about 30% less fuel economy, or about 100 fewer miles per tankful--who's going to want that? The CAFE standards don't reflect this because it goes by how many miles are achieved per gallon of GASOLINE(!) of which an E85 car is only using 15%, hence the CAFE ratings go way up on the above mentioned vehicle. Also tells of how it's hardly hardly any more "green" , will reduce our dependence on foreign oil only less than 1%. etc... I understand you can extract the ethanol from the grain and still use the remaining substance to feed animals, so it might somehow be practical from that standpoint--if you happen to grow the grain and feed a lot of animals.
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Goforth) writes:

Which means, btw, that there's an "invisible" pump-price increase, since you have to buy 30 percent or so more fuel...
(Same, btw, with RFG and other specalty blends. With those the number is more like five pervent - or $0.15/gallon...)
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actually in Houston the price for designer fules used in the summer adds about $0.20-.25

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If the vehicle in question was modified for ethanol the economy would be the same or better. And power would improve. As long as oil rules the world there will be no real effort to further the use of ethanol or anything else (other than gas) for that matter.
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writes:

Errr.... given that the energy content per gallon of ethanol is less than gasoline, that would be a neat trick.
linkname: EPA - OTAQ - Fuel Economy Impact Analysis of RFG URL: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfgecon.htm
BTUs per gallon:
    gasoline: approx 115,000 (depends on exact formula)     ethanol: 76,100
I'll let you work out the math as to what an E-85 mix would give you... Hint: It's a lot less than straight gasoline...
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danny burstein wrote:

Don't you find it incredible that people could be this stupid AFTER explaining the simplest thing?
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Rick Blaine wrote:

It's too bad the green movement is full of idiots like you who attempt to defy the laws of physics. You do not know what you're talking about--to an embarrassing degree.
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I'm not a member of any "green movement" whatever that is supposed to mean. It is you who is misinformed or more correctly ignorant, do a little research and you'll find what I've said to be true. I could post a couple of links for you but I'm pretty sure you've made up your mind and don't care to educate yourself. Pity.
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On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:22:19 GMT, "Rick Blaine"

I haven't. please enlighten me. As a recent immigrant to the Us, i really haven't heard much about ethanol mixes.

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Here's a link to a very good article hope you like it.
http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/papers/fuel.html

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I do not have to "educate" myself. Although my degrees are in Chemistry & Physics, it is simple math. Since ethanol has a far smaller energy content per gallon than gasoline, it is impossible to have the "same economy" or better. You could post any link you want to, but it cannot change that simple fact.
You could try reading the article in question for a start. LOL.
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Wow! Are you ever smart! I'm blown away, you've totally convinced me. Man, am I an idiot.
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The proof is in the BTUs
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
Just Another Dumb Ass Coasty
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"Coasty" <uscg_ret at comcast dot net> wrote:

Looks like every source cited there has a different method of accounting for the energy gain.
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Yes, it is the fuzzy math method. Some where between lies the truth and I meant lies. Coasty
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"Coasty" <uscg_ret at comcast dot net> wrote in message

Excellent web site.
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While we're on the subject, I just thought I'd post this again, an article about how we reached peak oil production in the early '70s and have been on the last half of the world supply ever since, we're obviously running out of oil but, as the author says, "Humans can't take too much reality." Agree or disagree, it's pretty interesting reading, although it was written over a year ago, at least. Hope you don't flame me for it, some of you sound quite knowledgeable on the subject, would like to know your thoughts.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/7203633/the_long_emergency /
I live in the midwest and ethanol plants are literally going up all around me, good for creating jobs I guess, but the bottom line has always been somewhat dubious from the beginning...at least to me.
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Oh, yeah, almost forgot...Ethanol plants going up all around me--what happens the first time we have a drought?
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Fuel Type Unit of Measure BTUs Per Unit Gallon Equivalent
Gasoline, regular unleaded, (typical) gallon 114,100 1.00 gallon
Gasoline, RFG, (10% MBTE) gallon 112,000 1.02 gallons
Diesel, (typical) gallon 129,800 0.88 gallons
Liquid natural gas (LNG), (typical) gallon 75,000 1.52 gallons
Compressed natural gas (CNG), (typical) cubic foot 900 126.67 cu. ft.
Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG or propane) gallon 84,300 1.35 gallons
Methanol (M-100) gallon 56,800 2.01 gallons
Methanol (M-85) gallon 65,400 1.74 gallons
Ethanol (M-100) gallon 76,100 1.50 gallons
Ethanol (E-85) gallon 81,800 1.40 gallons
Bio Diesel (B-20) gallon 129,500 0.88 gallons
Electricity kilowatt hour 3,400 33.53 kwhrs
Just another dumb ass Coasty
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Wal-Mart will be adding E-85 pumps to all their gas stations about 500, this will double the total amount of E-85 pumps in the USA.
The problem with any new technology is it is ever evolving. I remember when unleaded fuel became the E-85 and the nay sayers did the chicken little then as now with E-85.
Check out Brazil they are no 100% independent of any foreign oil and have 4 pumps at all gas stations E-100, E-85, E-20 and Unleaded 94. If what has been called a third world country can do it why can't the richest country in the world do it?
It would produce a boom for the corn and cane farmers in this country they would be the next generation oil companies and for once would make some decent money.
Coasty
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