Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

Page 14 of 16  
wrote:


Jim, you don't know me. You don't know my history and reputation as a mechanic and troubleshooter.
I FIXED problems. I had a lot of other shops and mechanics that would call me up to figure out how to fix problems they could not solve.
Kid brother the same - and he's still wrenching and he's over 50. I quit actively wrenching for health reasons some years back.
I still get calls to figure out what is wrong, particularly on older vehicles that young mechanics have never seen before, but also for electronic and electrical problems.

I am not superstitious.

It's not valve lifters as much as chain tensioners that rattle on startup if oil pressure comes up in a reasonable time. 10 seconds of running with no oil pressure WILL make hydraulic lifters clatter - but the Toyota engines I spoke of did NOT have hydraulic lifters.

Jim,
You OBVIOUSLY do not know what you are talking about. Bet you are not a mechanic either.
Mabee a parts changer, at best.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I don't claim to know you. But ain't hard to figure you out.
First you say it doesn't have a valve.
Then you say some of them had a valve.
Then you say they don't have a valve.
Then you say you can't figure out how the valve would work.
What more do I need to know?

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That he's absolutely correct?
I can't say that I've read every post in this thread, but I *can* say that the post to which you're responding is factual.
Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole. Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe, there really ought to be one on the inlet as well. This is obviously provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter. So *even if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.* (note: I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now, so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.) There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, above and beyond the construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface.
Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in excellent mechanical condition; one was a reasonably fresh reman engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue evident on the top side of the head.
Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give up.
nate
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N8N wrote:

About what?

Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been questioned.

All of them are as far as I know.

Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and superstitious beliefs?
    If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe are either due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That was a problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines. There are at least a half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance, there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been discussed.

Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause?

That statement is false.
(note:

That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims. All these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV. Where is the evidence from those test that the material makes any difference? Someone who chooses to ignore the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of a filter is superstitious IMO.

Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail. I know they don't fail on engines that are working as designed. I know others had the same experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence 1000's of these filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more convincing then my experience. It is just not very likely that you got all the bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be superstitious to believe that.

No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad). You described the problem clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking.

No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone to. You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem but just improved the symptoms. I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed.
-jim

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Not by me.

Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your credibility that is razor thin.

Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening. Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine.

I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to the Tim Allen movie.

Prove it.

So why don't they work?

It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure, but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people actually drive their cars.

Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results is a fuckwitted idiot.

Mine did.

You "know" this? How?

A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one possible result of running without oil.

I most certainly did *not* say that.

Riiiiiiight.
I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no ADBV built into the filter mount.

Nope. It fixed the problem.

I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies misdiagnosis.
nate
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N8N wrote:

Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more people share the same belief it then becomes fact?

The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump" is just another work of fiction.

I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports my position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing done on oil filters than on the food you eat. If you think there are flaws in those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims.

Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been done using real world conditions?

That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on that evidence or like you you rely on speculation.

I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in my experience with latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely reliable.

And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often resort to horror stories about poorly understood events.

You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start up went away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been there in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing" the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically on these engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at startup no matter what filter was on it.
-jim
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You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent "mechanics" out there.
nate
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N8N wrote:

I suppose you believe in order for me to become not an idiot I would need to have an engine with low oil pressure and spread folklore tales on the internet about how my engine got to be like that? I guess in your mind, everyone who is not having that experience is obviously demonstrating idiocy.

It's not hard to see why you would be concerned about finding a good mechanic. With your superstitions it would be just as hard for you to determine if a mechanic was competent to fix your problems as it would for you to figure out what is wrong yourself.
     -jim
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You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent "mechanics" out there.
nate ***************************************************
That same one who continually occupies your mirror?
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Wix doesn't calim to use a silicone anti-drain back valve on all filters. The Wix advertising copy that shows a silicone anti-drain abck valve also includes a disclaimer that says "Some filters may or may not have these specific features due to OE requirements or other manufacturing processes. Refer to individual part numbers for specific details." Unfortunately the individual details available from the Wix website does nto include this information.
And Fram does offer filters with silicone anti-drain back valves, you just pay more to get them (the Tough Guard product line).
Ed
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Yeah, my brother-in-law has a high volume repair shop in San Francisco and he gets all the marketing people from the different brands coming to his shop trying to sell him parts, including filters. He has a strict rule of "no orange filters" having been burned by them in the past.
The problem is that if a shop does and oil change, and their choice of oil or filter damages the customer's engine, the shop is liable. If you use the proper oil and good quality filter then you have a credible defense. Even when Toyota and Honda dealers were not using the recommended oil because it wasn't in their bulk tanks, he would buy cases of the oil in bottles, at significant expense, because he wouldn't use the 5W30 bulk oil from his tank in a vehicle that called for something else.
He buys higher quality jobber filters (which are no more expensive than Fram filters) as well as keeping a stock of Honda and Toyota filters for the customers that want them (at no extra charge, even though they cost him $2 more).
It's always amusing to hear the stories of naive repair shop customers that try to save money by doing stupid things. Like the guy that was going to fix his over-the-limit emissions himself, then come back for a free retest. Instead of paying $40 to someone that knew what to do, and could test that the repair worked before retesting and sending the data to Sacramento, the customer came back for the retest and had gone from barely failing, to becoming a gross polluter. Then he was willing to pay the $40, but it was too late because the smog check machine automatically sends the test results to the state, and once you're a gross polluter you have to go to a special smog check station and then you have to get yearly smog checks instead of every two years for certain number of years. Saving $40 cost the guy at least $300.
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wrote:

I know of a guy that knew someone whose relative had somewhat of a similar situation with ... Ah, each of those anonymous, apocryphal anecdotes are so very enlightening, not to mention humorous and entertaining, aren't they?
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Heron McKeister wrote:
<snip>

Especially because they are true!
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SMS wrote:

Geez don't you guys ever get tired of saying my superstitions is supported by someone else who is equally superstitious. It is not as if there aren't plenty of repair shops run by people who aren't superstitious. How do you think Fram got to be the #1 oil filter manufacturer?

No if your fictional scenario would ever become reality it would be oil filter manufacturer that is liable. You are talking about someone who does not even allow any one to talk to him about a particular oil filter brand. He is just plain superstitious.

Honda filters are made by Fram.

And this proves that you can throw just about any irrelevant fact into the discussion???
-jim
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Advertising. Lots and lots of advertising.
When was the last time you saw an ad for Wix filters? And yet they seem to be selling quite well.
nate
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N8N wrote:

Fram may be the #1 selling after-market retail filter, but it'd be very rare to find a repair shop using them. Most repair shops use jobber filters or OEM filters. The jobber filters have names that you wouldn't recognize.
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wrote:

On that particular 5.4 the filter was remotely mounted behind the front bumper and horizontal. I never had the problem when changing oil, but then I never changed oil when the vehicle was stone cold and the outside temperature was 10 degrees. Cold oil is more viscous, and therefore it takes longer build pressure. Also, when I change the oil, I doubt the oil pump has any problem losing prime. Not so sure about the situation when the oil leaks back through the anti-drain back valve overnight.
Maybe it was not the anti-drain back valve, but the Ford mechanic emphasized the need to use an FL-820S Filter on the engine instead of the older FL820 or any other filter that did not use a silicone anti-drain back valve. The only noticeable difference between a FL820 and FL820S filter is the anti-drain back valve material (the "s" uses a silicone anti-drain back valve instead of nitrile).
And finally, I never had the problem when using an FL820S oil filter (more than 120,000 miles after the time I had the noise). I certainly can't say for sure the oil filter was the casue of the concern, but it seems Ford when to a lot of trouble to update the FL820 filter to include a better anti-drain back valve. I can't imagine Ford spending an extra penny for something that was not beneficial.
Ed
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"C. E. White" wrote:

Where did you acquire that myth. Assuming you don't have some not approved oil with a high pour point in your engine the oil pressure should start to rise as soon as you start cranking the engine. And the colder it is the faster it will rise. When it is really cold out the oil pressure will often reach normal levels before the engine even is running. Oil is not compressible. So unless you have air in the system between the pump and pressure sending unit the pressure signal from pump to oil pressure sensor should be pretty much instantaneous. It sounds like you have a problem no matter what filter you use, but Ford has somehow convinced you you are magically protected if you use their filter.

    You need to really start looking at something other than hobgoblins as an explanation for how things work. If Ford can spend an extra penny per filter to convince you to not look for the defect in their engine and instead make you believe you are magically protected then yes it is money well spent from their point of view.
    Here is my experience with the Chrysler slant six engine: In the early 70's I worked at a place where we had 3 dodge vans with slant six engines. In the 3 years I worked there never had a problem with any of these engines except one - when it got down to -25F they would often need to be jump started to get them going. I talked to a friend of mine who worked as a fleet mechanic. He had experience with lots of these engines (and yes they used Fram filters where he worked also).     He said the trick to starting these engines when its really cold is to crank the engine until the oil light goes out. That usually takes about 2 seconds when it is really cold. When the oil light goes out stop cranking and sit and wait until the oil light comes back on. then wait a few more seconds and then repeat the procedure. At the second or 3rd attempt the engine should start.     Well I tried it and by-golly it worked. Never had to jump one those engines again even when the thermometer went down to -32F. And these engines all had Fram filters
    So excuse me if I don't believe the internet folklore about these engines failing to build oil pressure. I know from personal experience that never happened with a properly functioning engine. I don't care how many times somebody has had tear down an engine apart for oil related failures. That doesn't tell me that a bogeyman caused the problem that made those engines fail. What it tells me is those were badly maintained malfunctioning engines. The slant six was one of the most bullet proof engines Detroit ever built. When they were properly and well maintained there would never be any good reason to dig any deeper into these engines than removing the valve covers.
-jim
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wrote:

Ed
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"C. E. White" wrote:

    I'm not the one claiming to have knowledge of what is going on inside an engine with nothing to go on but fairy tales and superstition.
    Lets examine your claim that Ford went to great expense to improve the design of their filters in order to fix the problem you experienced with your engine. This story is nothing but a fairy tale. Its purpose is not to inform but to comfort the ignorant. The main purpose of this fairy tale is probably intended to divert you from noticing that there are design flaws in Ford's engines. The fact is many owners of these engines have had the exact same complaint even when they were using the magic filters and magic oil that Ford sells.
    Do some research on Nitrile and Silicone:
http://www.globalrubber.com/pdf/catalogue/Pt04_Elastometer_Characteristics.pdf
    You have absolutely no evidence that Silicone is a better material choice for this application. It's not as if no one has ever tested how these materials perform as ABDV valves in automotive oil filters. All the test results that I have encountered have not shown the use of silicone to be a superior material for automotive oil filter ABDV than nitrile. Comparisons that I have seen show nitrile ABDV valves to be generally superior to silicone. I seriously doubt that you have seen any real evidence at all that contradicts that.      There is no evidence that nitrile will degrade faster than silicone. In fact all the evidence from testing done by material scientists say that silicone will degrade faster than nitrile in motor oil. Many engines use nitrile where a dynamic seal is needed for motor oil. There is no evidence it doesn't hold up well - nitrile has been shown to provide reliable seal that will hold up for dozens of years. There is lots of nitrile used in existing engines where a dynamic seal is needed so it is absurd to claim it won't last in an application where it gets replaced in 1 year at the most.     There is no evidence that silicone makes a better or more reliable seal - again all the test results show the opposite in motor oil applications.     And finally there is no evidence that it costs more for Ford to put a piece of silicone rubber in their filters instead of a piece of nitrile rubber. And even if that part of the story was true there is no evidence that throwing more expensive parts inside a tin can makes a better filter.
    There is no part of your story that has a single factual basis. The entire story and all its parts are based on myth.
     -jim
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