Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

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jim wrote:


No, the argument with the picture of the sludge-filled engine is part of a straw-man argument.

Correct, because a mechanic is not supposed to know how to determine how often to change the oil independently, but, rather, follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
Jeff

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dr_jeff wrote:

No the picture is extreme example of the point I was making. Anyhow, if the engine is clean the oil has been changed often enough and if it isn't then it hasn't.

Well maybe if he is brain dead.
-jim
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jim wrote:

Please tell me how a mechanic is supposed to know the organic chemistry, metallurgy and engineering in determining how often the oil needs to be changed.
If very think, chunky oil is coming, obviously, the interval is too long. However, please explain what kind of knowledge base a good mechanic has that let's him/her determine the proper interval better that is better than the one recommended by the car maker.
Jeff
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dr_jeff wrote:

That never was the question. Here is the quote
"As a car ages, more frequent changes might be in order, but that's for a qualified mechanic to decide on a case-by-case basis."
Modern oils hold the fine dirt particles that the oil filter do not remove in suspension. But oil can only hold so much dirt. If you change oil often enough the oil changes get rid of the dirt. If you don't change the oil as often them some of the dirt will stay in the engine. If every oil change you leave some dirt in the engine it adds up. This does not require a Ph.D. to comprehend. Examining an old car and determining whether the engines oil needs to be changed more frequently is not the intractable and difficult proposition that you are making it out to be.

I have seen plenty of examples where car manufacturers provide recommendations to mechanics in one form or another to examine the oil and engine to determine if the oil has been changed as often as it should be. Typically this sort of advice comes in service bulletins that are intended to help diagnose engine noises like valve train clatter. More often than not these descriptions do not go into any particular detail of how the mechanic is to make such a analysis. It is assumed that a competent mechanic can tell the difference between a clean engine and one that is not.
-jim
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On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:24:16 -0600, jim wrote:

I'd wait for an analysis...

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dr_jeff wrote:

Perhaps they could send an oil sample out for analysis, LOL.
What's funny is people that look at their oil and see that it's dark in color and they think that the color is an accurate indicator of whether the oil needs to be replaced. It isn't. A mechanic might ask the owner a series of questions regarding how the vehicle is used, but generally they don't have time for this kind of evaluation on a job that costs $20-30.
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SMS wrote:

And the mechanic is able to interpret the results of the lab analysis how? The mechanic is able to tell that the lab is a good lab how?

And even if they do, they don't really have the knowledge base to apply the information they get from the owner. Plus, people's guestimates of how they do something (like percent of the miles that are highway miles vs. city miles) is likely to be quite inaccurate. They don't know how other people (e.g., kids, spouses) use the vehicle or drive it, either.
Jeff
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I like the GM system for determining oil change intervals. It is not perfect, but it does at least attempt to modify oil change intervals to compensate for varations in the vehicle usage. I had a Saturn that used it. I never actually waited until the oil change light came on, but with the light providing a stop point, I felt a lot better about extending the oil change interval.
For most of my life I have been a 3000 mile oil change guy. But after seeing how well things went for people I know who change at longer intervals, I decided to go for longer intervals as well. I figure for everything I own, 5000 miles is a good interval.
Changing oil too often is not cheap insurance if there is no benefit.
Ed
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On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:18:03 -0500, "C. E. White"

Now that you mention the GM system.... My 95 Caprice had that in it. We changed the oil, per our fleet policy, every 6000. The oil change light came on almost always about 500 to 1000 miles sooner, IF it came on at all, between resets/oil changes. So based on that I'd say the GM algorithm came pretty close to calling for a 6000 mile interval.
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On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:18:03 -0500, "C. E. White"

The manual says it could come on in as little as 2000 miles - or less!, depending on some "conditions" mentioned - speed, temp, etc. My son does my oil changes, and I suppose he could have reset it at some point. I'll have to ask him, but I don't think he ever reset it. The manual is vague, only saying that it should be reset after changing the oil, but not specifying that the light actually on requires the reset. Reset is key in run, engine off, push accelerator to floor 3 times quickly, and light should blink twice and go out. Anyway, the light is on now and has been since we got back from Florida a couple months ago. We changed the oil before we left, and only put about 3000 miles on it before the light came on. First time I ever saw it, but since my wife is its main driver, I'm not sure if was on before.
--Vic
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My oil chnage light in my 2009 Dodge Truck comes on around 2500 miles.
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Our 1998 Buick LeSabre actually had a reset button in the glove compartment area.
There were occasions it came on at less than 3500 miles, but not often.
I have heard the GM algorithm strongly defended as far as its ability to predict oil change intervals, but like most everything else in this entire thread, there is no hard proof that I have ever seen.
I am sure these studies must exist, on filters, oil change intervals, effect of particulates of different size distributions in the oil, etc etc, but I have never seen them. (And I HAVE looked for them)
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has also changed the oil before it came on, because we about to take a long trip. And if it isn't on, he doesn't reset it. That raises some questions. Personally, I don't see it as useful unless you're willing to let it be your sole guide to oil changes. Since we jot down mileage at changes, then change again after 3k miles and no later than 4k miles, the light is just an irritation.

to see if says anything about it. Don't hold your breath.

I don't think they exist in a useful form. Imagine the logistics and expense of testing so many engines under many conditions and miles, with controls. Even if one were to test the oil filtration characteristics of many filters, using one engine to do it would not necessarily reveal how another engine would do with the same filters. Then you'll naturally get mechs and internet pundits saying stuff like "Sure, the Fram might be OK the Chevy, but the Ford really needs a Purulator." The CR report was the most extensive I've seen, but had many flaws. I consider it useless except as an interesting read. The auto manufacturers have the best somewhat controlled ability to get a handle on it with their maintenance schedules and dealership networks. Besides that, when I worked at IH there were engines constantly running on stands in the engine test area, and I'm sure all manufacturers do the same. I don't know what tests they do, but it's a safe assumption they are using their own oil change recommendations to run some amount of miles, teardown, and look for wear. Doubt they tinker too much with the oil beyond that. And as far as I saw, testing was done under constant external air temperature. Could be wrong about that though. As an aside, when I was at IH in Melrose Park, IL, an engine test tech was killed when an engine flew apart. There was quite a stink with the UAW about flawed test equipment that allowed the engine to go full throttle. About 1973. In any case, a car on the road, driven under diverse weather conditions, and varying warm-up and acceleration modes, is best left to the owners own judgement regarding when to change the oil. My opinion.
--Vic
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And I fully agree.. It is the owner/driver, at the end of the day, who has to assume the responsibility for his maintenance diligency. (Except when someone dogs one unmercifully and dumps it on an unsuspecting used car buyer.)
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Go to www.sae.org and search for papers on the subject.
The following was extracted from 981443 - Extended Oil Drain Intervals - Conservation of Resources or Reduction of Engine Life (Part II)
"....The authors jointly presented a paper at the February 1995 SAE Congress (1). The main conclusion of the experience up to that time was:
"Used oil analysis of test cars in the European Market demonstrated that engine oils can be already exhausted at 6,000 km ( 3,700 miles) or could last up to 30,000 km ( 18,650 miles), depending on quality of the oil and use of the car....
"4. CONCLUSION
"For a considerable time it has been the objective for scientists and engineers around the world to optimise the use of resources on the one hand and on the other hand to reduce operational costs for cars by defining the ideal ODI. So far the best tools for the optimal definition of the ODI [Oil Drain Interval] are relatively simple engine calculation systems based on mileage, number of starts and average oil temperature.
"But also the oil quality has a major influence on the ODI. Since there is a wide variety of lubricants with different performance levels available in the market, it is necessary to develop a more intelligent system to include oil quality in the calculation.
"An important task is to detect the correct engine oil performance level. High performance engine oils are usually blended with extra high refined or synthetic base stocks at higher cost. But they have a range of benefits, especially reduced friction properties to improve fuel economy and emissions, reduced oil consumption and better wear protection properties. If this is also the case after several thousand miles of use, a bonus has to be included by calculating the ODI. On the other hand the ODI has to be shortened if a poor oil quality is used.
"But the ODI is not only heavily influenced by the quality of the engine oil, but also by the design and the use of the engine which are major influencing factors. Therefore ideally we have to develop on-board monitoring systems to detect the condition of the engine oil during its use. Sensors able to do so are under development, but not yet available for production.
"Combining the data stored in the engine management systems with "in situ" conductivity measurements is a step forward towards optimised ODI's. The experience and the high number of tests accumulated within the cooperation of both companies over several years resulted in the new ASSYST service system. With this system the car owners will benefit from an optimal mileage calculated up to the next oil change. But there will also be a cost benefit since the customer is able to select the most appropriate oil quality level (to benefit from high performance oils) and increase the lifetime of his car...."
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Thanks, C.E. By the way, I was googling yesterday, looking for a Timken lubricity tester, and found a link to a video where this (somewhat elementary) took was being used to evaluate several motor oil lubricants and additives. It is worth a quick look. I will try to find it and post it on here.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iFOTu2Kimg

Here is that link.. Interesting, but not definitive.
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hls wrote:

Especially when you do a little research on the "winner" of that test, Motor Latte.
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t )267 http://wwsnforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t
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You can find a number of items which will give spectacular test numbers on this kind of lubricity unit. Whether they do anything at all inside an engine, and whether they promote longer and more trouble free engine life is quite another thing.
I always harp on wanting to see hard data. For something to be of value and interest, it needs to be tested under relevant protocols, over a variety of conditions, and with enough population in the test set to assure that the data is significant.
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I have been there before, but at $12 per paper, I didnt go any further.
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