1998 Grand Caravan

Page 9 of 13  

OR
voltage
you
There are no symptoms to indicate that there is anything wrong with the battery at all and it was load tested or did you forget the 629 CCA tha the battery provided DURING the test but even if it were not if a 10A load is enough to pull the battery down to 10.5V, it would not have enough power to start the car.

LOL, you need to work on that reading comprehention.

was
not
These conditions are only in your head.

Unless the drop was measured directly at the battery, and it wasn't, it is no indication of battery failure.

While age is a factor, it is the least important one unless it is really old, and this one wasn't.

Does this have to do with your fictitious cell voltage?

simaltaneously,
The battery WAS load tested as indicated by that odd CCA rating he gave.

confirmed
of
absolutely
But once is all that is needed to disprove your battery BS.

voltage,
original
engine
Who cares, once is all that is needed to eliminate the battery as the source of the problem.

engine
It does no such thing, no matter how desperate you are that it does. All it shows is a significant voltage drop in the wiring. The fact that it happened only once simply proves you wrong on your constant voltage at any speed statement as the voltage had to be low enough that one time for it to cut out.

or
Just because you do the same thing over and over again doesn't mean that you are doing it right.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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So what you are now saying is that a load test WAS done. I guess I wasn't so wrong about it being a good test to do. I saw that it had been done, but you all argued it wasn't necessary. Thats simply incorrect.
Thats what makes this even funnier... you "experts" are arguing that its not necessary, yet you'll sit and quote about it being done as though it was never a question as to whether it was a good idea.
--
Max

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is
but
No, the OP said that the load test was done and I don't recall anyone saying that it was a bad idea, only that it was not needed. The point is that it IS unnecessary in this situation because if a small 10A load could cause such a massive voltage drop in a few seconds, there would be no way the battery could start the engine.

not
That might be because it was done, even though you insisted that it be done again, denied that it was AND in this situation, it was unnecessary and no point that you have made so far showed that it was.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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The point is, when the following facts are mentioned:
1) Inverter shuts down due to low voltage 2) Battery is 3 years old and is factory issue 3) voltage test immediately after being in charge mode is less than 13v (residual should be over 13v for a few moments at least) 4) load is small (under 10A as you keep repeating) yet voltage drops rapidly (a few seconds to drop under 11v) 5) port voltage starts out at over 12v
Line drop is not a sudden thing. Load of under 10A is not a big load. Battery is reaching life expectancy for the brand. Battery doesn't hold a residual charge very well, but instead drops to nominal quickly.
Everything points to battery condition, while #1 also points to port design. Load test is cheap and easy, taking less than 2 minutes. It also eliminates the bulk of the problem indicators. It makes accurate testing of the port possible.
Fact is, all you "smart guys" wanted to look at was the inverter symptoms, when there were others mentioned that had an effect on the problem an could easily be checked in one easy step.
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Max

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it
Which could be and is being caused by a voltage drop in the lines and / or socket.

Mine lasted over 6 and I have yet to have one not last at least 5.

This is not a new battery and I have yet to see your over 13V on a standard battery. While the POS voltage gauge in the truck says over 13V (engine not running), my $200 meter directly connected to the battery says different, around 12.6V. I wonder which one is more accurate.

rapidly
Actually, I was incorrect, the voltage drops immediately according to the OP which completely indicates a wiring problem.

This is the part that get you in trouble Max because it indicates that you don't have a clue as to what a voltage drop is. If there is no load (and a good meter has a very high impedence and puts virtually no load on the circuit it is testing) then the voltage on the port has to be the same as the battery. It is this simple Max, no current draw, no voltage drop.

You have yet to provide anything to say this factory battery could ever be pushed up to 13V+ on its residual charge. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. It could be that the voltage drop in the lines drops the voltage at top residual level of that battery to just above the minimum requirements of the inverter and even a loss of 1/10 of a volt on its residual charge in 30 seconds (which is still pretty good) is enough to cause the inverter to alarm and shut down.

design.
eliminates
Only if you don't look at the big bicture Max. Read above.

could
The symptoms did not warrant a battery load test because like many have said and you continue to ignore, if the battery was so weak as to be the cause of this problem, it would not be able to start the vehicle and the OP stated many times, it started with NO problems.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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Max,
Admittedly I've not followed the inverter thread . . .it didn't interest me, but...
1) As it should to protect electronics plugged in like laptops.
2) If the battery has been given real world "normal" maintenance, it's on it's last legs.
3) Should be over 13 V and less than 14V
4) Small load, fast V drop = low voltage reserve capacity . . .IOW, the battery is on it's last legs.
5) If port voltage drops rapidly under small load, battery is on it's last legs.
So we're in agreement on this appears and the "experts" are overlooking the KISS factor.
Budd

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Bingo.
The only two problems I've ever had with engineers is that some are arrogant pricks relying on their credentials instead of knowledge, and some don't like to look at the simple problems first.
More often than not, I'll stand by their work. In this case, all of our "resident engineers" got it wrong.
Whats even more amusing is that, as engineers, they don't have enough confidence in their comrades over at Chrysler to believe that an engineer would never allow too small a wire to be used in getting the job done. I can hear the BS now, "well, thats what the fuse is for" etc etc etc. Terrific, if the fuse never blew, then they weren't drawing too much power from the circuit, and thus the voltage drop is due to something OTHER than the design of the vehicle. That leaves two things:
The inverter is pulling too much amperage, and the voltage drops as the fuse blows......
OR....
The battery isn't able to supply the circuit, and thus the fuse is never overloaded and never blows.
So while they think we don't like engineers, my entire reply was based on engineers doing their work correctly.
Conclusion: Either our resident engineers were incorrect about the cause of the problem (assumed to be wiring) and the need for a load test to check the battery
OR
Chryslers resident engineers were wrong, and failed to put the appropriate size fuse on the circuit along with the correct guage of wire.
SOMEWHERE in this mess, a bunch of engineers SCREWED UP, its either in design or diagnosis.
I don't know about you Budd, but I'll take the word of the Chrysler engineers over the word these self proclaimed experts on the systems in question.
--
Max

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How much did I win???

Agreed. I've mentioned before about having worked with a few Big Four (at the time, GM, Ford, Chysler, AMC) on developing the cat converters back in the early 70's. I was impressed that not a one of them was like Matt or Bill.

You noticed that too? ;) The bad part? One has an Electrical degree.

It's curious also that Mopars have never been known for electrical problems to the extent of Ford or GM.

The simplest description of a fuse is "a load sensing automatic, non-auto resetting switch". It blows, it stops current into everything downstream.

And the undervoltage limiter shuts it all down.

Agreed.
There is the third variable . . .the owner installed an oversized fuse and/ or a factory assembler screw up and installed an oversize fuse. Quick check: read the fuse rating and then see what the fuse is rated at.

Max, as we both know, too often idiocy or ego is considered to be more important than common sense or applied education.

My friend, there is no doubt that Chrysler engineering has its act together, but our resident engineers are just poor actors.

--
Budd Cochran

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
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Nothing, because as long as you keep this up, you are being a loser.

You worked in a muffler shop on a bending machine.

And you can back this up how???? Oh, that's right, you can't. All of the evidence, including the very load test you insisted on say you are wrong. Get over it.

engineer
problems
LOL, Mopars were also known for making some of the best automatics on the planet and yet you are whining about one of their screwups there as well.

power
than
LOL, what in the hell are you talking about.

Yea, but it is due to a fault in the wiring, not the battery.

on
And wrong.

appropriate
and/
check:
Which has nothing to do with anything at all.

And sometimes those without the education think they know everything and then demonstrate the opposite.

together,
Oh yea, Chrysler never screwed up. I guess that's why they never got above #3.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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Max Dodge wrote:

(you later go with the second choice, therefore...) As has been pointed out several times, if you are correct, the battery can't maintain voltage with a 10 amp load, but it can start the car without any problem wich requires several times the 10 amp load. Not plausible.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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An as I've stated numerous times, the inverter shut down due to voltage drop. The starter motor is too "dumb" to care; it will continue to crank at less than 9volts, not very well, but it WILL crank. As such, if the voltage dropped to 11v nominal, and held long enough to spin the engine for one firing stroke, and the ECM fired one injector, the engine is starting on 11v start and running on 13.5+ after alternator reaches idle speed. We've all heard this happen in our youth while in the cold and with a near dead battery, while uttering words similar to "f***, my ____ is gonna kill me if I can't get home." This could easily happen in the time mentioned as that which it took the inverter to shut down. As was noted, he had better than 11v at the port under this load. Since there IS some drop in the line, its almost sure that he had more at the battery, but not by much.
As such, your engineering which says it cannot happen (and I'd agree on first glance) is overridden by reality where imperfect voltage doesn't necessarily mean things come to a dead stop. Remember, there is NO switch on the starter that is operated by a voltage sensor. The only thing switched is the injector, needing 11v nominal to fire.
IOW, the engine needs 11v to start, the inverter needs 12v to operate.
--
Max

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Max Dodge wrote:

I thought the cutoff voltage of the inverter was 10.5.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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I recall it as being 11.5v. Given what its used to feed, I'm surprised its not higher.
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Max

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never
voltage
address
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And what are your degrees in?
What gauge wire carries the starting current? The power outlet current? The pilot current for engaging the solenoid is a mere fraction of the current required to crank the engine . . .your argument is false.
--
Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9
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Budd Cochran wrote:

(1) I already answered that. (2) You already stated that you wouldn't believe me no matter what I told you.

Except (even though you don't realize it), what you've been arguing is that the drop is coming from within the battery (internal resistance) - and that drop will be due to *total* current it is supplying at any given moment (again you illustrate your gross ignorance of reality as dictated by Ohm's law). So, when engaging and cranking the starter, the drop in the battery will primarily be determined by the current that the starter is sucking. Even with zero drop across the solenoid supply wire, the voltage it sees will be no higher than what the battery can provide at the heavy current draw of the starter.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Ah, yes, thanks for reminding me why I don't believe the stuff you wrote below.
--
Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9
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Budd Cochran wrote:

Budd, you don't have to believe Bill, just Google "Ohms law" or pick up any basic physics or electrical book. I searched for "Budd's law" and came up empty. :-)
Matt
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No thanks, I still have my electrical engineering handbook.
--
Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9
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Perhaps you should take the time to comprehend what it is telling you.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
"Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom SPAM.net> wrote in message
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