2000 Dodge 2500 transmission problems

I suggested that years ago, and found no proof of a problem, and in fact, found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised it worked that way. In fact, one of the specific instances I can get LU in

3rd (OD on) is when I accelerate slightly going up a slight grade, instead of kick down, I get LU. Which would suggest that......

... your preceding statement is false. If Dodge in fact wanted to lower trans temps, and figured less TC slip time would be an asset, then CC LU in

3rd gear would in fact do exactly that: cut slip time, and lower temps. As such, your previous statement contradicts itself, and proves that my slight acceleration inducing a CC LU would in fact do EXACTLY what you claim the designers wanted it to do: create less heat.

No, I'm going by what I'm seeing on the tach and speedometer. I get a drop of approx 100RPM, after the 2-3 shift, and before the 3-4 shift. Its there, and I've seen it for 7 years now. The trans has performed flawlessly and has displayed no heat issues whatsoever. Small wonder, since LU will create less heat than unlocked.

Does it state that what I have happening is impossible and/or abnormal? No, in fact it suggests just the opposite. Further, it suggests that OD would occur lower than 40-50MPH, and we know thats not possible either, right?

Sage advice from one who, despite claiming to have proof, has yet to offer anything but personal attack as rebuttal.

Try doing as you say.

I'll offer the same proof that I have offered all along, a section from the FSM describing the operation of the converter clutch; the FSM description of normal operation completely refutes your claims that the FSM supports your version of normal operation.

The underlined sentence clearly states that the clutch operation is governed by the OD control switch position which is in direct contradiction to your claim that switch position doesn't matter. The highlighted section explains the sequence of application depending on switch position, and this completely refutes your claim that the FSM supports your contention that clutch application is ALWAYS after the 2-3 upshift.

Regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics, the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence.

Except that the line immediately prior to your highlighted info shows that the CC is contolled by the PCM using several parameters that do not include the OD switch. My truck confirms this as correct.

All this despite your claims.

Max wrote:

Marsh wrote:

Max wrote:

Marsh wrote:

Max wrote:

Marsh wrote:

Max wrote:

========= =========

Max, in response to your last paragraph...............

No!

If doesn't make a clarified statement to that effect, true.

however, concerning the way you say you can get lockup to "kick in" instead of the unit downshifting, sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer that's programed to do exactly that. Now, no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. It's your truck, you drive it, you seem to know, by however you do, that lockup IS kicking in on 3rd gear. So....I'm not going to try to convince you it isn't. I don't know. I do know that it's not supposed to by all the tech info I've come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives I've done on the system.

With that said..........

check yer mail, if the addy is good.

~:~ mm ~sips his crownroyal~

======== ========

Addendum,

Max, With the above said, I'm posting on my experience with scanning these vehicals and the ATRA, MOD, and AllDatat literature that's available to me.

but...... you say your truck has been checked over the years for several drivability issues and the lockup concern was discussed with techs at those times, who told you that the vehical was behaving normally.

I'll take your word for it.

you say you know others with the same vehical and theirs are behaving the same way with no problems over the years.

I'll take your word for it.

But........ I will be paying a little closer attention to the data pids on the ole Modis to see if maybe what I've been wanting to see............... isn't what is actually happening, and I'm going to go check in with the ATRA site and get some input from "all knowing" minds.

any whooooooo.......

It's curious that someone else with the same set up hasn't posted a pro or con on this subject. Regardless of what the AllData lit that I sent you stated, it seems your vehical does what you say it does with no adverse affects, and seemingly because of normal operation.

a good topic......... one of interest to me because I like to think I'm on top of my game in this field, and may be wrong.......

but..... not willing to admit it......yet..............

^ ^

• 0 L O

~:~ mm ~pours kunkle a crown-n-coke......and passes max the mushroom tea~ ~:~

This truck is, sadly, bone stock. No computers to enhance performance at all for either the diesel or the trans.

I know because I can read a tach, a speedometer and I can count. Moderately heavy acceleration gets me TCC LU at about 45-50MPH, and OD at 60MPH, with TCC LU again at 61-62MPH.

Everything I've read lacks any specific claim that TCC LU in 3rd with OD on should not occur. Since TCC LU is fed by second gear hydraulics, if this were truly a failure, the TCC would be able to LU in 2nd. It does not. It also unlocks for the 3-4 shift. The truck does this fairly smoothly (obviously its not like a Chrysler car) and its not any more abrupt than normal, and it is not bone jarring nor does the truck hesitate or balk. Given that it occurs in a variation of speeds and RPMs that are not only predictable (they occur at teh same points in travel and throttle), but coincide with the shift events that are claimed to be "normal", and all of the shifts and TCC LU events occur in accordance to TV pressure, it would be hard to explain it as "abnormal."

Well you better bone up on your reading skills, the enclosed section of the FSM clearly states the normal modes of operation and it is unambiguous.

If engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no mention of the control switch position.

Again your interpretive skills are as lacking as your general knowledge.

You place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and PCM, these in no way eliminate the function of the OD control switch; even if all of the PCM inputs say "lockup" the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. This is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph.

The fact that the description of the sensor/PCM functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. If the TCC LU was independent of the control switch there would be no mention of the switch position since the primary funcrtion of the control switch is to control the OD function. The simple fact that the FSM describes the function of the switch in relation to the TCC proves that the switch position is the determining factor in TCC LU.

If engagement of CC in 3rd were abnormal, I'd have a P code. I don't.

I'd have 0720 indicating a low spd sensor RPM, since TC slip would be nil. I'd have 0743 indicating TCC solenoid/trans relay circuits either open or shorted. I'd have 0783 (possibly) indicating an inability to complete 3-4 shift.

I have none of these. There is no P code for abnormal lock up, or even 3rd gear lock up.

Do tell, if its such a problem, why do I have no codes?

Since the input parameters are mentioned first, they get priority. They do not eliminate the OD switch function, they are a parallel to it. On my truck, the input parameters determine when CCLU occurs, not the OD switch. I also understand that it is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. Sadly, you have an inability to accept that 1) othe information contradicts that line, and that info is in the same paragraph, and 2) my truck contradicts that line, and does so without any problems or trouble codes and continues to do so after 7 years of flawless transmission performance.

Sadly, you couldn't prove that if you tried. Further, the PCM is the only thing switching the TCC. So if it says engage, the TCC does it. What the FSM says about it tells me that there are parallel control parameters (input from sensors, input from OD switch) and one is a manual override. You may have been taught that the OD switch is the end all of control, but my truck says otherwise. As yet, there is nothing except your claim that says my truck is operating abnormally. No P codes, no odd trans behavior, no bucking and jerking, nothing. Except your whining that it can't possibly be the way it is.

I'd like to agree with you, but obviously the switch is mentioned, and my truck is busy laughing at your claims. So, I can't agree with you.

The simple fact that I have no P codes for a TCC failure, TCC circuit failure, TCC solenoid failure, or TCC electrical failure, indicates to me that there is no failure.... yet, I have TCC LU in 3rd with OD on.

But contrary to what most would say, you'll claim to know it all, and diagnose my truck (that is over 2000 miles away from you) far better than the PCM bolted to the body of the truck.

Wrong, all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. Oxygen sensors produce an output even when they're on the shelf in the parts department, does that mean they are controlling a mixture?

No contradiction at all, the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor, you're just too stupid to read simple English.

Not according to the text in the FSM, and I quote "If the overdrive control switch is in the normal ON position, the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth gear....". What part of that sentence is ambiguous?

Screw your truck, it's not about your truck, it's about your claim that the FSM supports your version of normal operation; it doesn't. I'm not surprised that the FSM "tells you" other than the actual facts, misenterpreting the FSM is the story of your life.

Once again, it ain't about YOUR truck. And yes, the fact that the OD control switch is mentioned in a description of TCC operation that you claim is always the same regardless of switch position is damning to your assertions.

Does the control switch ignore them? Nope. Why? Because the PCM is what toggles the OD and LU solenoids, not the switch. Take a look at the wiring diagrams if you don't believe me. The OD switch is between the PCM and ground. SInce all the switch does is produce an input to the PCM, I guess its the PCM that makes a choice on the OD and LU solenoids.

Enclosed paragraph apparently didn't inform the PCM, the wiring, or the guys designing either of them.

The part on page 8W-31-4 (or page 8W-15-12) of the FSM which shows that the OD switch doesn't electrically have anything to do with the OD function except to notify the PCM of driver choice. Thus, if the PCM were programmed to do so, it could pick a random interval from when you actuated the switch, or it could ignore the input altogether. On page 8W-30-7, you'll find that the transmission solenoid assembly cannot be actuated in ANY way unless the PCM does it.

John, go unfuck yourself and look at the wiring diagrams, its pretty clear.

Except when I have it correct. Which, much to your chagrin, I am.

Well, me and my damnned assertions will stand by what the wiring diagrams in the FSM, as well as the paragraph you quoted incessently, show to be true.

Never came close to saying that, what I said was: DIRECT QUOTE "it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed FSM quote.

Word games, the ground provided by the overdrive control switch has the ability to activate any number of separate circuits that control the TCC LU sequence as the FSM clearly states.

Tomato, tomahto; the point is that the OD switch provides a single ground source that configures the internals of the PCM to engage the TCC depending on the switch position as the PCM clearly states.

Once again, all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what, the "wiring" can't be used to prove the final operation.

Never said otherwise, but the PCM is configured by the position of the OD switch as is clearly explained in the FSM just as it is powered by the ignition switch.

Yup, and the choice of parameters is dictated by the OD switch position as clearly explained in the FSM.

I have no idea where you got that notion, I have never even remotely suggested that "the PCM allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids", another of your typical distortions. What I DID say, and this is a direct quote: "it's more likely that when the OD switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed FSM quote."

Uh, uh, I'm trying to clear a path through your typical distortions to the truth which lies in one simple paragraph in the FSM.

That's the point of conjecture, the FSM clearly states that the sequence of TCC LU is in total control of the driver via the OD control switch.

I see nothing in his offering that supports one word of your assertions.

Nor can the FSM, since it doesn't have any direct connection to the PCM or the solenoid. Funny how that works.

1) the lines you highlighted say nothing of the sort. There is NOTHING in the FSM which says CCLU cannot occur in 3rd gear with the OD switch in the on position. 2) the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot be done, but does it with inputs such as throttle position, speed, and RPM, AND does it without showing a trouble code, is enough evidence to say that 3rd gear CCLU occurs when the PCM determines, not the OD switch.

Despite all your claims my truck works flawlessly, without trouble codes, and does what you say cannot happen.

And sadly, the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that OD on locks out CCLU in 3rd gear.

FSM page 21-353 section: NOTE; PCM inputs: Overdrive/override switch" FSM page 21-356 section: OVERDRIVE OFF SWITCH; OPERATION; "The switch is a momentary contact device that signals the PCM to toggle current status of the overdrive function."

Take note that this is an INPUT, not a manual toggle, like you seem to believe.

FSM page 21-323 section: TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH (TCC) second paragraph; "converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module."

Take note that the PCM relies on INPUTS, not manual switches. Take further note that nowhere in that section does the FSM say "TCC will not engage in third gear while OD switch is on."

FSM page 21-340 section: SWITCH VALVE; "When the transmission is in Drive Second just before TCC application occurs (fig 42)......" second paragraph; "Once the TCC control valve has moved to the left (fig 43) line pressure is directed to the tip of the switch valve, forcing the valve to the right. The switch valve now vents oil from the front of the piston in the torque converter, and supplies line pressure to the (rear) apply side of the torque converter piston."

Seems pretty clear that the PCM is NOT the only control over the CCLU function. THUS my statement that the PCM was a parallel control system. Since it is well known that CCLU function is available hydraulically in second gear not only because the FSM says so, but because many aftermarket companies have taken advantage of it, it follows without doubt that the CCLU function is available in 3rd gear to either the PCM OR the hydraulic control of the transmission.

Since both are available, and have been exploited by the aftermarket, it hardly seems like a stretch for the factory engineers to make the function available to the PCM while in 3rd gear, OD on.

Terrific John, then where does the PCM get a ground when the OD switch is NOT closed? And why can't that ground be used? Regardless, it simply shows that you are once again assuming you know how the PCM works by interpreting the words in the FSM. We both know that the PCM can be programmed to the whim of the programmer, and thus the CCLU function will occur whenever that program dictates that it should.

Sadly, both the hydraulic and electrical schematics disagree, as do other sections of the FSM. If you'd like to use ONLY that paragraph from the FSM, perhaps the best thing to do with the rest of the FSM would be to sell it on ebay and stick to your .jpg image.

Sadly, it states no such thing.

Try reading more of the FSM than one paragraph.

Nope, not word games, bullshit spin by you. You seem to think the PCM needs another ground in order to operate the LU solenoid. But the fact is, it obviously already has one. You claim that the OD switch is merely a ground for something, yet the FSM shows/says it to be an input/signal, not a toggle.

And my point is, that "configuration" would work as you claim IF it were solid state technology. Given that the FSM state the PCM is "adaptive", and can therefore change its programming to suit the driving conditions, its nt simply a matter of "configuring", but more a matter of yet another input to the PCM.

As such, claiming that the OD switch makes any specific change to the PCM operation of the CCLU function would be an assumption that you have already denounced as impossible.

DAMN,,,,,,,,,,,,

a felluh takes a few days off and you guys are still at it........

lmao

~:~ marsh ~sips his coffee....stretches his limbs.....looks at his greasy wrench's..... man........back to work we go~ ~:~

The FSM is the ultimate proof in the form of a clearly worded description of normal operation.

Nothing "says" it can.

2) the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot

Once again, it isn't about your truck it's about your claim that the FSM supports your truck's mode of operation which it clearly doesn't; it clearly contradicts your claims.

If you want to play specifics, where in the FSM does it specifically say the TCC can engage in 3rd with the OD switch in the ON position? What it clearly says is emphasized by the word NORMAL, with the OD controm switch in the NORMAL ON position the TCC will engage "after the shift to fourth". With the switch in the other than NORMAL OFF position it can engage in 3rd. If your unit operates differently it is not in accordance with the FSM and, therefore, the FSM DOES NOT support your claims.

As an aside, it seems that all of your units operate out of the norm, your infamous Maxflite has the front pump in the rear, line pressure drops to zero at each shift and it falls out of gear at the shift "to ease the strain on the gears".

Another distortion, I never said anything that remotely resembles that. The momentary contact to ground merely configures a control circuit in the PCM as is clearly described in the FSM.

Yep, AFTER the OD control switch commands the sequence of operation as is clearly stated in the enclosed paragraph.

If the INPUTS are by way of a manual switch your statement contradicts itself.

And nowhere does it say "The TCC will/can engage in third gear while the OD switch is on". Touche'. As usual you challenge me for specific wording but are unable to supply same.

Tell the engineers to reword the FSM to match your version of operation. It hardly seems a stretch for factory engineers to include the OD on 3rd gear TCC engagement in the description of operation, it would take only a short sentence but they failed to include that info because it isn't intended to operate that way. What you can't grasp is the fact that the OD switch is the ultimate control of the TCC, the factory engineers wouldn't have gone to the bother of devoting a paragraph to it if it wasn't. Not including one simple sentence to back your claim speaks volumes.

Huh? Do you think the OD control switch is the only ground source for the PCM? Look at the wiring diagrams that you're so fond of citing, there are several "joint ground connections" and the PCM has dozens of connections to them. Numerous internal control circuits in the PCM use the joint grounds. The OD control switch supplies a momentary ground for the sole porpose of configuring the internal circuits, the actual ground for the transmission solenoids is provided by one of the joint ground connections. The fact that the internal OD control circuits default to ON at each ignition switch OFF/ON cycle shows that external controls override sensor inputs.

At no time in this discourse have I even hinted that the OD control switch was the actual ground source for the solenoids.

Never said otherwise, you're the one who claims that the FSM supports your description of normal operation and now you hint that special programming outside the normal parameters of the PCM explains your transmission's operation. Which is it? Your transmision is normal or your transmission has special programming?

Sadly, as in the past, YOUR interpretations of both are a product of your vivid imagination.

One paragraph is all that's needed, it says all there is to say about the OD switch function in relation to the TCC operation. Everything else is your typical subterfuge to try to direct attention away from the single paragraph that says it all.

Sadly, you can't read.

So, we've jumped from "March Monster's findings" to the FSM?

Cite the portion of MM's findings that relate to the RE series Torqueflite. Cite the parts of the Dodge truck FSM that deal with adaptive design.