About 2008 Dodge Avenger SE

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2008 Dodge Avenger SE The News from www.takeauto.com Pricing Information MSRP $18,220 Invoice $16,923 Standard Engine:2.4L I4, 16 valve, 173 hp @ 6000 rpm
4 speed automatic transmission 21 mpg city / 30 mpg hwy
Optional Engine(s):2.7L V6, 24 valve, 189 hp @ 6400 rpm 4 speed automatic transmission 19 mpg city / 27 mpg hwy Standard Features: Driver Airbag With Multi-Stage Deployment Front Power 294-mm X 26-mm Vented Disc and Rear Power 229-mm X 35-mm Drum Brakes AM/FM Radio With 4 Speakers Total; CD Player; MP3 Player
Options: 4-Wheel Anti-Lock Brakes Engine Block Heater AM/FM Radio; 6-Disc CD Changer; MP3 Player
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takeauto wrote:

No manual transmission? No thanks then. Autos take the fun out of driving a car.
Bob
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And for some reason Dodge has forgotten that. Cars become cool when the cool people own them and sadly, most of the "cool" people will not even look if a standard shift is not available. Then there is also the thought that if the car is not available with a standard shift, then it really isn't much of a performance car and is just a wanna be, much like the Mustang II
--
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"Bob M" < snipped-for-privacy@vzavenue.net> wrote in message
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wrote:

Dodge has bigger problems. They need to convince the public that they are going to still be around in a few years now that corperate raiders own them. I would hate to see them go under but things do not look good unless its workers accepts some serious concessions and reduce labor costs to save capital to be used to help turn them around and keep them off the auction block. Daimler paid 500 million to unload them after that monies for sale were distributed and you do not spend that amount to unload something unless there is a lot more red ink in the pipeline and you are cutting your losses. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
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TBone wrote:

That is true but the Avenger was never designed or marketed as a performance car. Not in the 90's version and not now. It's a sedan.
Even sports or performance cars today are sold over 80% autos. Only a few want manuals. How many Corvettes do you see with manuals? How many new Mustangs? Take a trip to your local drag strip and tell me how many funny cars, dragsters, and even performance bracket racers are manuals these days.
There just isn't enough public demand for manuals except on low end models or in trucks. I do see manuals often in small sporty coupes.
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look
that
much
That is simply not true. Have you seen the commercial for it? The guy is testing a bunch of them banging thru gears with their autosticks and making them play that song and why would he be doing that unless they are trying to show this as a performance vehicle?

The problem is that few are the Jones and if they don't buy them, then the rest of the flock really doesn't either.

A hell of a lot more than automatics in the crowd that I hang with.

how many

That is not the point. I am not arguing performance here, only perception and both the Mustang and the Vette are offered with standard shifts.

That is not as true as you might think and while the auto can in most cases outperform a standard in a flat out run, a standard can easily keep pace and outperform the auto in winding hilly runs where downshifting the auto will cook it after a while and it is a hell of a lot more fun and what is the real purpose of a sports car anyway but to have fun.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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A dhifter similar to that is in the SRT. It shifts as quick as a standard.

I guess none of them drive a Z06.

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The current Avenger is a FWD weeniemobile. Nothing about it is a serious performance vehicle. To address your question, you're a victim of a successful marketing ploy.

Serious enthusiasts go for the sticks; most other people go for the autos. Except for base entry level weenieboxes, automatics are standard equipment whereas a stick is optional.

Most Corvette drivers nowadays aren't serious performance enthusiasts. They're older guys who just want to be seen in one.

And they're both offered with automatics too. Most dealers stock automatics because that's what sells the most.

Sticks are great on a course as you say, but the percentage of people that buy them for that reason is inconsequential to makers and dealers. The vast majority of buyers will go for an automatic because it fits their lifestyle.
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And you don't have a complete understanding of the thread. I never said that it was, only that DC is trying to market it as such and I didn't fall for anything.

Actually, the automatic is almost always the option and at extra cost. The dealerships carry mostly automatics because they are easier to sell. The point is that the enthusiasts in many cases are the driving force behind sales, especially with performance oriented vehicles and if they don't look, neither does anyone else.

That sounds like you don't like Chevy. Either way, they are still offered with standard shifts, just like the Mustang.

You are just unable to see the point. These cars sell because they are thought of as cool to own and that is in some ways because the enthusiasts buy them first but if they ignore it.....

While true to a point, they still buy what they perceive as cool and if the car is ignored by the cool people.....
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

Thats just a commercial. Mitsubishi does has a commercial that kinda implies the Lancer is a sports car. It's nothing of the sort. To me they're marketed as inexpensive sporty 'looking' fun cars to drive. A 2.4L engine or the V6 is not performance by anyones standards.

Thats your crowd. The vast majority of Vettes and Mustangs sold the past few decades are automatics.

Thats true but its a small market share. Most of both those models are sold as automatics.

It only cooks an auto if an idiot keeps it in drive in hilly areas.
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is
making
trying to

I never said that it was but the commercial indicates that it is. IF it came with a 5 or 6 speed, sales would increase.

They are sold that way because that is what most of the dealerships order because since anyone can drive them, they are easier to sell and I don't recall ever saying that standard shift was more popular, only that sport and performance cars need to have it available for them to be taken seriously.

perception
Once again Miles, you can't see the forest thru the trees.

cases
and
will
You really don't seem to know a hell of a lot about cars if you believe that.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

Highly doubtful. The Calibers are available with a 5 speed but only account for about 15% of sales and only on the base models. Manual transmissions are just not very popular. Every single one of my cars from 1984 till 2000 were manuals and I struggled each time at the dealers to find one. No, they weren't out of stock because of high demand. The dealers stocked so few because they don't sell. People want automatics.

Yep. The public demands automatics FAR more than manuals.

Taken seriously? Ok, so they produce a manual but it accounts for only 10% of sales of a particular model. Does that make the public take it seriously even though they don't buy it with a stick?

No Tom. Fact is people prefer automatics. You seem to be saying that more cars of a given model will be sold if they simply have a manual available even though people won't buy it.

An auto cooks when it continually shifts up and down. A typical car will not cook climbing a hill if its held in the proper gear. We're not talking about towing a heavy trailer with inadequate cooling here Tom!
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Then that would indicate a possible 15% increase in sales now, wouldn't it but I think that it could go higher.

cars
No, the automatics can be sold to anyone since anyone can drive them. It is not just a matter of demand, it is a matter of faster sales and since many will just buy the automatic off of the lot rather than order it and wait but those who really want one will order it so they normally don't lose the sale by not carrying the standard shift in stock.

order
Demand has little to do with it since most dealerships are heavy in auto's and light to non-existant in standard shifts.

and
seriously.
Yep, because many of the trend setters are enthusiasts and in a sports car or roadster, they are looking for the standard shift and if they don't buy them, then the trend has a much harder time getting started.

In the sports car, muscle car, and roadster arena, yep.

No, we are talking about sports cars and driving them as such where the gears are being used to control the cars speed and forcing the auto into lower gears at high speeds will cause excessive heat and is for the most part boring as well.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

It most certainly would not. A fair amount of those buyers may have purchased an automatic had a manual not been available. They may have bought the manual simply because it was much lower priced and not because they wanted a stick shift. Thats why so many cars come with a stick only in the stripped base models.

Hmmm..I said it was higher demand for automatics and you reply NO...then explain to me how its demand...easier sales. Yes TBone, people buy automatics because thats what they want and prefer. If more people wanted sticks then more would be on the lot.

Tom, this is because of higher demand for automatics!! You seem to think dealers stock what they want to sell and people follow. No Tom, dealers stock what people want.
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it
And you know this how???? Oh, that's right, you don't.

Funny, I thought that I said this as a reason for so few standard shifts being found on the lots. Thanks for backing up my point.

LOL, yea Miles, that's a good reason for someone to buy a car that they probably don't know how to drive.

Once again, you prove your lack of knowledge. While this ,ay be one reason, the more likely one is that the standard shift that comes with the bargin basement model is not strong enough to deal with the increased weight and HP of the upgraded models. This IS the reason that you could not get the 1500 series Ram with a 5 speed and the 360.

It is

many
but
sale
You act as if there is no demand at all for standard shifts but said yourself that you searched for one multiple times. The demand is there and it is not as great as it is for the automatics but it is not non-existant either. There is a much greater chance of converting someone wanting a standard to an automatic then it is to convert someone wanting an automatic over to a standard shift so they stock mostely automatics.

Sorry, but no. Sticks cost less and that equates to lower profits. Why would you make it easier to lose money? Since just about all of the dealers tend to stock the more expensive options, there is no motivation to stock the cheeper ones. If people really want one of those, they can order it.

auto's
That is because that is EXACTLY how it works. While there is a higher demand for automatics, especially in the granny cars, the demand is not 100% for them and yet, Dodge makes it damn hard to get anything but.... Perhaps that is why they are # 4 or is it #5 now.

Dealers stock what they can move the easiest and sometimes, that means telling the customer that is all that they can get or all they can get today and it is something that they can live with.
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TBone wrote:

Not true at all. The Caliber's 5 speed is the same transmission found in the older Stratus which had a V6 with the 5 speed and is much heavier. The CVT's are what can't handle high torque very well.

Never said it was non-existant. I said the reason for dealers having so few is because of very low demand for them. It's a select group that wants manuals and not an easy sale.

Like I said. It's market demand. Too few people looking for manuals.

Lower end base model cars do not sell anywheres near at the rate of better equipped cars. Look at the Calibers. They are Dodges low end entry level car. Yet the base model SE's will sit on the lot and be passed up for higher end SXT's and R/T's. You're way off base thinking that dealers stock what they want to sell and people just buy whats available!! Sorry Tom, dealers stock what people want to buy, not the other way around.

No Tom, it most certainly is NOT. Dealers stock what people want. They don't shove what they want to sell onto the consumer. It does not work that way. Good thing you're not in sales!!
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Miles, you are only partially correct here. If you are refering to just the Lance, like the one they show in the commercial with the new paddle shifters, yes, it is a sporty looking but not a sports car. If you are generalizing the "Lancer" this is where you are incorrect as the Lancer EVO is a sports car.
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wrote:

I wouldn't consider the EVO or the WRX STi (EVO's main competitor) "sports cars" by any means, as they are both 4-doors and have their roots as FWDs. The original American sports car is the Corvette.
These days, makers' marketing departments are doing their damndest in trying to convince potential buyers that weeniemobiles are "sporty- cars" or "muscle-machines". Unfortunately, it's still just marketing.
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Why just because it is a FWD vice RWD, has 4 doors vice 2 and is a "ricer" is it not a sports car? I never saw/heard any of those being "required" to classed as a sports car.
I'll give you that "back in the day" only the US made "sports cars" and yes they were all (almost at least) manuals, with only two doors, but wake up and smell the coffee, this is not "back in the day" anymore.

How is the EVO and the WRX STi a "marketing ploy, please explain. Though I personally don't care for either of them, what they are able to do in both performance and handling right out of the box is far from a ploy.
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azwiley1 wrote:

I had a similar discussion with a guy I use to work with (an Indian) that absolutely would not budge off of his position that to be considered a "real sports car" it had to be RWD. He consider the Honda S2000 a "real sports car" because of this.
I still get a good chuckle from that.
Wanna talk about a "real sports car"? Aston Martin DB9. That car gives me a chub.
Craig C.
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