Boiling a battery

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Sorry Gary, but you seem to be the one having a hard time figuring it out. I thought that the header may have tipped you off but here you are again, LOL.

Well if that were true, it really shows the level of intelligence that you and Maxi have and the fact that the two of you keep dancing (like in the gravity thread) more than proves how low it really is.

Why would you make such an idiotic bet? What would be the purpose of me wanting to restrain myself. It is obvious that you can't do it but as usual, this is boring so fell free to have the last word in this lame takeoff thread but at least make the dance more entertaining for me next time.
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LOL, the gravity thread? You mean the helium thread, where you proposed that helium had no weight?
As to our intelligence, we intrigued by betting on something with hard to figure odds. For instance, I've got a bet going with a friend locally that a certain person will dump her boyfriend by a certain date. So far, I've lost twice, and won twice. We swap sides and pick new dates for the end of the bet each time. So far, the boyfriend has lost four times, although I don't know if he knows it yet.....

Why indeed, its almost a sure thing that you'll leap up and hit the button. But we do it for fun.

Dignity, class, intellect, manners, proper conduct, respect, just to name a few.

Double or nothing, Gary?
C'mon Tbone, you can do it........
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wrote:
Let's forget all the little biy squabling and answer the OP's question.
The voltage MUST be checked across the battery posts - pos to neg. If the voltage is within spec (under 14.6 with a fully charged battery) and the battery still boils, the battery is shot.
Checking from pos to engine or body ground will GENERALLY give a higher voltage if the ground is bad. If the wire from the alternator output has high resistance, measuring from the alt output t0 ground will give a higher reading than across the battery.
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No shit, and this is what I was saying all along. The voltage however, DOES NOT have to be measured across the terminals in this case because as your examples have clearly demonstrated, the voltage will not be higher at the battery than at these other measurement points and we are looking for an OVER VOLTAGE condition at the battery. As for the battery being shot, that possibility has been substantially reduced as the OP indicated that this condition is occurring with more than one battery so unless both of them are shot (although still a possibility), the problem seems to lie elsewhere.
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no, numb nuts
we are searching for the cause of over CURRENT thru the battery
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What do you think could cause that Gary? The only thing that can cause over current thru a good battery at full charge when the alt is operating is excess VOLTAGE and if you don't know that then you have some studying to do. Where he took the measurements will have the highest voltage and since it is within spec, over voltage is not the problem at the time of measurement because there is no way that the voltage at the battery could be higher than where he took the measurement. Now a bad connection in the VR sensing wire could cause it to spike up the voltage for periods of time while driving which would cause excessive battery current or it could also be something sucking power during non-use periods causing the battery to deep cycle which would also cause excessive current flow during normal charging for a standard automotive battery but neither one of these conditions are going to be found by where you take the measurement. Sorry, but you are still wrong.
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What kills me is that he knows that, because he suggested it, but he keeps going back to how much voltage the VR is putting out via the alternator. I keep telling him its not the voltage, but if the voltage is continued beyond when its needed, i.e. current pushed in when no demand is present.
But hey, its Tbone.
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maybe if we expressed it in % ?????
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Express it any way you want to, you still got it wrong, LOL!
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LOL, every time I read this from you, it just makes me laugh harder. How exactly is the VR going to know if the battery needs charging or that the headlights and or wipers happen to be on in an older vehicle???? The point Maxi, is that it can't and fortunately, it doesn't have to. All it needs to do is keep the voltage with a given set of parameters and the system will take care of itself, including the battery.
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Thats terrific. Unless it doesn't work, like the OP's vehicle. So while you are busy trying to show off how much you know about how it works, I'm telling you to find the problem that makes it not work. And its obviously not working, because its boiling the battery.
Let us know when you come to a conclusion as to what the problem is, because at least three of us have said to do a better and more thorough check of the wiring and componants before going any further.
Meanwhile, you've "taught" us how the system works about five times. Thats great, but this particular system is NOT working properly. So instead of jabbering about how it SHOULD work, develop a troubleshooting procedure, and FIX the goddamnned thing.
We'll wait.
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No shit Sherlock, I gave him some possible reasons and how to check for them which is more than you did with your crap about measuring across the terminals, LOL.

Really, what three? Gary said no such thing and come to think of it, neither did nospam. The only one toting this load of crap is you. As for wiring, I did suggest that he check the sense wire and field wiring because they are the only thing that could cause THIS condition. As for what exactly is wrong, I don't know and neither do you but at least I gave him some tests to help find out which is much more than your measure across the damn terminals BS.

Yea, 5 times and you still don't get it.

I did that MANY posts ago and sent it to him already. You really need to pay attention.
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On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:31:39 GMT, "TranSurgeon"

And the ONLY two things that can cause overcurrent through the battery with the engine running and the battery being charged (which it obviously is at 14.2 volts) are too high a charging voltage (which it is not, at 14.2 volts) or a defective battery.
If the voltage was below 12.6, I'd agree you might POSSIBLY have a load problem - but it would, in my opinion, have to be significantly lower - like 11 or so.

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Wrong! If something is pulling a reasonable current from the battery constantly (like 150 to 500 mills), between that and the huge draw from the starter followed by a 14.2 voltage being applied to it, it can send a reasonably high current into the battery for a fairly long period of time. Perhaps you should learn a little something about batteries.

What are you talking about here? A battery voltage of 12.6 or a system voltage of 12.6?
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Maybe you should as well. "Reasonably high" isn't a technical term anyone here recognizes as something specific. I'd say you are waffling, and had. A battery charging voltage of 14.2 has little or nothing to do with the actual current flowing in the battery, as you've so eloquently stated time after time. Thus, I'm not sure why you bothered to use it as a reason for the battery getting a "reasonably high current". The "huge draw from the starter" is likewise unmeasured.
You have no idea what the particular starter is drawing, and it seems like you don't know what an actual starter draws period. Most starters do not draw near what the battery is rated for on a constant draw. Initial spike might exceed battery rating, but in a well designed and maintained system, this too is unlikely. Further, unless the vehicle is particularly hard starting, starter draw is for short period of time, and will not induce battery boiling.
Even your claim that recharging after a long draw and then a short "huge draw" (WTFIT??) is suspect, as the system design takes into account the battery in that system, and is designed NOT to cook the battery.
So once again, you've discussed things that are irrelevant.

If you don't know, then you shouldn't be part of this discussion.
BTW, he was talking battery voltage.
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That is because you are trying to hide from being wrong, as usual. I am using relative terms because I don't know the specific values and neither do you.

I said no such thing and 14.2 volts has EVERYTHING to do with how much current is flowing into the battery along with the batteries state of charge.

The state of charge determins how much current will flow into the battery at a given voltage and if the battery is already weakened by an unintended prolonged current draw from something like an illuminated glove compartment light, the added pull from the starter will make it worse

LOL, there is no need to specifically measure it as it is only compounding the problem in this possible cause of the problem.

LOL, I don't see any numbers comming from you.

Gee Max, near ratings and might exceed ratings are not exactly technical terms anyone here recognizes as something specific either so as is said many times to you, PKB!

LOL, no matter how low I think your knowlege is, you jump in and prove me wrong by showing it to be MUCH lower.

Yea Max, under normal conditions you would be right but that constant draw is not a normal condition and unless the person is using a deep cycle battery, the battery is not designed for that either.

Just because you don't understand it does not make it irrevelant.

You should be the last person to say this when it is obvious that you don't have a clue about the function of the charging system with your voltage means nothing BS and yet, here you are.

Are you so sure about that? Depending on the battery type, 12.6 (static measure) would be from fully charged to 3/4 charged and 11 would be stone cold dead (again, static measure) in all types so if the battery was a low maintenance or a cheep battery, 12.6 would be fully charged.
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Uhoh.... yer wrong there. I can go outside, and get a specific amp draw reading on any one of my vehicles. Do you even HAVE an ammeter that will do that?

Um, no. Current is measured in amps not volts. So the voltage at which the system is operating doesn't tell a doggone thing about what the battery is taking in, or putting out. Thats why a check across the terminals is needed, it eliminates the system, and checks only the battery. Thats also why you do a load test FIRST, because that draws a load on ONLY the battery.

Wrong again. State of charge AND age of the battery make a huge difference. Your theory about a glove box light and a starter is hogwash. You should be looking at the battery condition and age.
Feel free to post again, we're betting on it.
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LOL, while you can measure the current draw from the starter in YOUR vehicle (actually, I doubt that you really have the ability), if you think that every starter pulls the same current you are even dumber than I thought and now you are reaching all new levels of ignorance. With that in mind, NO, you do not have the specific values for his vehicle or even yours for that matter so once again, you are wrong and full of shit as well. Oh, and BTW, I do have an inductive amp meter that can read current levels that high.

Hahahahahahaha, you really are funny. While current may be measured in amps, voltage is the force that causes current flow and current is simply how much is flowing. The higher the system voltage is above the battery voltage (state of charge), the more current is going to flow into it so as I said, both the 14.2 AND the batteries state of charge has everything to do with it. Once again, you demonstrate your complete ignorance of even simple DC circuits.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh, please, stop, you are killing me. Can you really be this dumb? First of all, if you are talking about current, you cannot measure that across the terminals of the battery, LOL. Second, unless you disconnect at least one of the terminals of the battery from the system to isolate it, the system is still connected and will still influence your readings. Third, only an idiot would attempt to load test the battery with the engine running and again, unless you disconnect the battery, the system will still be there. BTW, if the engine is not running, the battery is the only source of power and will be the only thing load tested regardless of where you connect the ground wire, LOL.

Really??? Got proof on the battery age thing??? It is more the condition of the battery than it's age and BTW, an old and / or abused battery builds resistance due to sulfation and takes LESS current and a lesser chance of "boiling" at a given voltage. How many times can you be wrong before you just give up? As you seem to be demonstrating, an infinite number of times, LOL.

LOL, the "glove box light" and starter both have a direct effect on the condition of the battery as in its state of charge so my theory as a possible cause of his problem is valid, even by your idiotic standards.

As long as you make it this easy to make you look foolish, you CAN bet on it.
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So now the state of charge is part of it? Well duh, no kidding. But I'm still talking about the condition of the battery, not just the state of charge. And its interesting that you've argued in the past that volts had nothing to do with current, now you claim it has everything to do with it.
Does that merry go round yer on have a colliape?

Um, yeah, ya can. See, load testers have this neat little resistance bank in them, makes a bunch of heat, but generally does a good job of checking current output of a battery. Available at any good auto parts place.

Right, but I figured that was so elementary, that if you actually knew what you were doing, you'd know to pull the negative terminal.

I never said to load test it with the engine running. Indeed, I never gave any specific instructions or conditions under which to test it. You are reaching pretty hard there.

Correct, so pull a terminal clamp and do it right. You know how to pull a terminal clamp, right? You've got the right tools?

Um, yeah, thats the idea. Load testing a battery is best done by load testing the battery. You act as though this is a new discovery of yours, been doing some reading in order to catch up?

Actually, yes, I do. Let me dig a bit here......

Sound familiar?
As to the current, yup, an older battery will take less current, since less of its plates are able to be used in the chemical reaction. What this means is directly the opposite of what you claim. It takes less current to charge, but at the same time, it takes less current to exceed its ability to charge, thus, it heats up faster, and boils more easily. Thats why some large battery chargers have timers with age increments on them.

You might want to check your facts on who is looking foolish, Mr. "Helium has no weight"
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OK guys here's what's current. Step 1 1. Old battery was a Delco, bought it 2002 2. Second battery, had a Mopar label, but suspect it was Exide, about three years of life. Both batteries spewing liquid, much corrosion on car. Just replaced battery with brand new Exide battery, over rated for this vehicle, more CCA (525, car requires 430).
What I found on the drive home. Install of new battery, before cranking engine, voltage is 12.6 volts. After cranking engine with, engine running, 14.36 volts 2 minutes after starting, battery voltage is 14.19 volts. With a Fluke DVM connected to the battery, for 27 Km, battery voltage varied between 14.09 (at a stop light) to 14.21 at 70Km per hour, no load beyond engine draw. At idle with full current draw (rear window defog, head lights and blower) battery voltage was 13.86. Idle voltage with no current draw (beyond engine and driving lights) was a battery voltage of 14.09 volts. Time to recovery from a full load idle was about 1 min. Air temp was about 25 degrees C. It should be noted that I was also monitoring the "sense" voltage (on a second meter) at the alternator (voltage reg input), and that voltage was about .5 volts lower, but followed the battery voltage, and never changed beyond always being about ,5 volts less than the battery. For 27 Km the monitored battery voltage never exceeded 14.35 volts.
Step 2 Attached a third DVM, to monitor the current output of the alternator (250 amp shunt installed in series with the output). With the day time running lights and, always on, side markers, disabled (removed fuses), the current from the alternator was 15 amps (seems high to me). Moved the shunt to the battery, current into the battery was 5 amps at start but was decreasing to 4.16 after about 15 minutes (idle speed). Battery voltage was now about 13.70 volts. Manual says when the regulator operates above 60 degrees C that the reg voltage is 13.4 to 14.6. The alternator housing containing the regulator was to hot to hold your hand on. At no time during any of this testing did the battery voltage exceed 14.5 volts. And for the record, the "key out of the ignition" current draw was, 125 milliamps. So, unless I can find some other problem, my best guess for an answer is, "two bad batteries, with the same fault". Test instruments tell me that the system is operating normal, the only variable was the battery. After about 50Km of driving there is no sign of fluid leakage from the battery. At no time did any of the three batteries feel warm to the touch. The second battery (Mopar) had a specific gravity reading in the "white " zone between green and red, but this could have been because we had added water. The first battery was sealed and un testable.
I hope I haven't caused to much grief in this news group, and thank you Tbone and all the others for your recommendations and suggestions. I now know more about batteries and charge systems than I ever wanted to know. Now I just need to know how to stop all the battery acid corrosion. I have washed everything with baking soda and water, but it still seems to be corroding.

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