Built like a Mercedes (?)

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Max Dodge wrote:


LOL.
Like it or not, each region has its own design

Yeah right! I weigh 300lbs and have never had a problem. I have never even heard of problems with cars due to weight of cargo although I do know of one Ford Mondeo that has settled on its springs a bit after 200,000 miles. A new set of springs would see it back as new.
Part of that is because we drive longer distances,

So you are saying now that it is easier on the car in the States. Certainly long distances are infinitely easier than the narrow twisty lanes we have in Europe although our freeways generally have average speeds of 80mph or so.
Another factor in those distances is the fact that

Still easier on a car. In Africa half the distances would be on unmetalled roads and similarly in India and Pakistan. Have you watched the news and seen what driving conditions are like there?
Add to this that our fuel has

I fail to see how driving a lot is relevant except that you do fewer cold starts per mile. 200,000 miles is the same distance wherever you are.
I have yet to see a pick up truck from Japan deal with the

Half ton eh? I don't think there are many pick-ups sold in Europe with a payload of less than a ton but there you go. Most of your pick-ups seem to carry not a lot more than fishing tackle.
Huw
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Yes, you find it funny, I find it sad. In general, an Asian designed vehicle will last maybe five years without major needs. Used to be that inside of three years, an Asian made vehicle would rust badly, which is to say, holes through the metal. Perhaps now that they are built here, that is solved. European vehicles fare a bit better, but by seven years, can become cantankerous if not costly to maintain due to nickel and dime stuff that costs ten times as much because its Euro design.

Well, then you must be fairly ignorant on load capacity of vehicles.

No, long distances are not easier. Quite the opposite, they create another type of hazard to longevity, that of heat and wear. Thus our larger engines tend to do better than the smaller engines from elsewhere. Your freeways are driven at like speeds to ours. This is not to say that our vehicles are better or worse than any other, simply that design follows use. Thus, cars designed in the country where the designer uses them, will fare better in that country.

Have you seen where we drive here? I guarantee imports won't survive the same type of road here in the states. I know, because we've done our share of driving "other" stuff, and it just doesn't do as well as american iron when it comes to rough roads. I see far more 1980's Chrysler 2.2 powered stuff than I do any other maker's 1980's vintage stuff. A rough second place would be Chevy Cavaliers. The only other that would place would be the Toyota 22R engine, mostly in Celicas. However, lately those are rare too. Too bad, I actually liked those.

You cast aside how many vehicles it takes to go that distance, let alone which ones actually make it that far.

I don't think there are many pickups sold in Europe, but feel free to cite proven statistics. In the States, a pickup isn't built above the one ton level. I'll bet its the same in Europe.
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Max

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Max Dodge wrote:

That is at variance to what I hear on the mainly right wing American posters on alt.autos.toyota where there is only one decenting voice to the overwhelming majority who believe both Toyota and Honda are leagues ahead in reliability and longevity compared with domestic cars. Rust has been a thing of the past on Japanese built vehicles that have been imported here in the last 15 years. There was a time in the 1970's that they developed bodywork holes you could put your fist through within five years. That is historical and not representative of recent products.
European vehicles fare a bit better, but

Mass sellers always have cheaper parts. If European cars sold in enough numbers the parts prices would reduce in the same way that seldom needed Japanese parts have.

I am aware that huge American vehicles have a very low payload in relation to their size and weight compared to European vehicles but that is only a symptom of poor design by the big American manufacturers. Could it be that some of their problems and decreasing market share is related to poor and profligate design? Toyota is going to overtake GM this year in volume terms. In profitability it has overtaken GM long ago and customer retention is very high, which is a prerecuisite of increasing sales.

You are ignorant of wear factors affecting automobiles. A car reaches its operating temperature and wear is minimised.
Thus our

Tell that to the owners of Toyota and all the other Japanese vehicles who consistently lead reliability and longevity ratings all over the World.

Is that so? A whole lot of your country has a55mpg limit while ours is an universally ignored 70mph. Italy is inhabited by looney drivers and Germany has no speed limits on some roads. I know of one owner of a British built McLaren there who regularly drives at over 200mph on his commute. Here in the UK speeds are generally kept down to 90mph or so because the driving license is lost if speeds exceed 100.
This is

Heard it all before about various cars trucks plant machinery and everything and it is bollocks. Japanese and exotic European cars would not be so successful in America if this were true. Fact is the big American barges and smaller cars that just don't drive as well as Japanese and European cars are like dinasaurs, out of time. This is the reason Ford and GM are in such a hole.

Actually very many cars make it that far. At least European and Japanese cars do. I have a Mitsubishi Shogun that has 165000 miles on it that has towed highly illegal loads far higher than it was designed for that is only now slipping its first clutch. My Toyota is just on 100,000 miles in eight years and it has only needed bulbs [two brake lights] and a rear wheel bearing so far. Even the exhaust is like new. A friends Audi Allroad which was serviced every 20,000 miles if it was lucky crossed 200,000 miles and it is still running somewhere probably.
Your assertion that conditions are harder on cars in the USA is just nonsense as anyone who has travelled extensively will know for certain. Conditions are only really worse where roads are not metalled and where it freezes really hard for long periods. These things cause increased wear not your ridiculous assertion that long distance running causes it, which is laughable if it were not so sad in that you actually believe that you know your ass from your elbow.

There are huge numbers of pickups sold in Europe though a lower proportion of total vehicles than in America. Very few have a payload of less than one ton. The market for half ton payload trucks is almost non existant. OTOH very few pickups have more than a 1.5 ton payload and most then buy 7.5 ton gross forward control trucks which are driven without a special driving license.
Huw
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On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:35:27 -0000, "Huw"

Remember the FORDS of the same vintage?? A friend's 3 year old Montego had the seat mounts rust/pull right out of the floor in 3 years. And Torinos that the mirrors fell off, complete with a large patch of metal in 2 years, or the door handles fell out, and there was nothing left to fasten them to??????? And Pintos that rusted through the firewall where the inner fenders fastened? Wasn't just the Japs and Brits and Fiats that rusted away in no time back then.But they did seem to rust faster for a longer period of time. They were not designed to handle the salt on the roads in "middle America"
I DO like American iron in many ways, but dollar for dollar I'll take a Toyota, or a Honda over most of what "America" has to offer today.And most of them will be built closer to my home than most of the socalled "American" models.
If I want a BIG car, I'd buy a DC product made in Brampton. Or possibly a Crown Vic from Tilbury. If I want a small car, a Corolla from Cambridge or a Honda from Alliston. For a small sport Ute, I'd consider the new (mostly Suzuki based) stuff coming out of CAMI down at Ingersol with the GM badge, or the Matrix from Cambridge. But right now I'm not in the market - the "Mercury Mistake" clone of the Mondeo only has a bit over 100,000km on it at 10 years of age, and will likely last the wife another 5 years - and it doesn't get much long highway driving. The 12 year old Trans Sport has 333,000 plus KM on it and will likely do me for another few years too unless a deal comes up that is "too good to pass up". Regardless, my next car will be another used one - whatever seams to stand up reasonably well and is cheap.

But bigger engines, not worked as hard, tend not to overheat as easily. A lot of the smaller "american" and european engines do suffer from heat on long hard runs. Even some of the Jap stuff has problems with "coking" and sticking rings, as well as lubrication breakdown (running that thin 5W20 oil). Lots of head gasket and intake manifold problems, even on some "american" engines due to heat (and poor design) With the "world market" lots of our "American" engines are euro, asian, south American, or Aussi in design. And lots of our "American" small cars are asian designed , and even asian built (Daewoo is GM in Korea - and sold here with a "bow tie")
Lots of these problems show up here, while the cars are the model of reliability in europe and elsewhere. Our conditions CAN be severe. They ARE different than most of the rest of the world.
Get over it.

And if you drive down the 401 (major highway across Ontario) at less than 130Kph you almost get pushed off the road. Talk about a "universally ignored" speed limit. I've personally shot across large expanses of the American Mid-West at well over 100MPH (160KPH), and it didn't take an $80,000 dollar car to do it.

Generally true.

Agreed. Yet DC is building big American Barges and making money doing it. Ford and GM can't seem to build decent small cars, except for their euro/asian influenced/designed stuff. Chrysler has had a reputation for not standing up too well over time, mostly little stuff like shedding cheap trim etc - but the old "K" cars just don't quit. Lately GM can't seem to fix ANY of their design problems - the 3.8 problems continued for years, and now the 3.4s as well.

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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

Huge amounts of salt being spread on British roads as well. I think it was the high price of steel at that time that made it attractive to recycle scrap iron which resulted in poor quality bodies. I hope standards are kept high today as the price of steel over the past twelve months has been just as high historically speaking.

American models apart from Jeep have never sold well in Europe. In the UK Chrysler is now marketting their rather nice looking 300C and might well sell it well. The specification, looks and the drive is good and the availability of the superb V6 diesel engine [Which NA and Canada might not get] is a big plus point.

From your email address I thought *you* were the wife. LOL

Surely not in Canada. Many posters on the Toyota and Honda group from Florida and all over the USA. Never heard of an issue with overheating. Big engines are just as prone to overheat as it is just a symptom of an inadequate or defective cooling system, nothing more.
Even some of the Jap stuff has problems

Well there you go.
With the "world market" lots of our "American" engines are

They have a lot of heat in those countries. Daewoo is now rebranded as Chevrolet in most of Europe today. LOL

My friends in Canada have no problem with Summer heat but do mention Winter cold.

No it doesn't. Almost any small family car can cruise indeffinately at over 100mph.

There's more money to be made from big cars and the consumer is a fickle creature. One minute he wants big cars and bigger SUV's then when the inevitable fuel price increase occurs he wants to downsize. The car manufacturers cannot win in that situation unless they mainly target smaller car markets to start with.
Ford and GM can't seem to build decent small cars, except for

The Ford Focus and Mondeo they produce over here are really top class cars. They have given up trying to sell Ford brand cars any bigger and they have bought premium brands to fill this sector.
Chrysler has had a

Their European cars are OK and that's it. A few Corsa are sold to private owners but most Astra and Vectra go to fleets. Their drivetrains are pretty good but apart from one or two models they are not 'desireable' cars. Their latest diesel engines are built to Fiat design.
Huw
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On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 09:29:38 -0000, "Huw"

They have finally figured out how to re-smelt steel instead of just heating it up and re-rolling it, which , from the results, appears to be about all they did in the seventies. Todays quality steels can contain large proportions of remelted scrap.

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Max Dodge wrote:

You really need to get out !
In Asia ppl can't afford to replace cars willy-nilly. I'd expect some of the cars on Indian roads easily to be 20 yrs old. They don't rust that much over there actually.
As for the roads - well until you've driven through a few Indian pot-holes you haven't experienced how bad roads can really be.
Graham
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Max Dodge wrote:

And you haven't seen even the roads in Bombay - never mind their 'highways' outside of cities.
Graham
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Heh. Thanks to PA roads, I've got three slightly bent wheels, and the fourth is only unbent because of http://www.wheelcollision.com . But Costa Rica's roads makes Pennsylvania's roads look smooth, and I doubt India's are much better.
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wrote:

Try west African roads - paved roads with potholes big enough for a pig to dissapear into. Make that 2 pigs. 2 BIG pigs Or east african roads where you could lose a VW beatle in the rainy season.
Pensylvania highways are BAD, but not that bad.
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Max Dodge wrote:

Uh ?
My last UK Vauxhall Cavalier lasted 180,000 miles and 16 yrs without any major parts replacement at all. Original clutch AFAIK too.
You're daft if you think maintenance is expensive because of 'Euro' design too.
Graham
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Max Dodge wrote:

Parts travel both ways. The parts for the US built X5 and Mclass I owned were no different to German built models. Parts for Japanese built vehicles are no more expensive then British built Japanese brands. Transport cost is trivial from the US to Europe and vise-versa. A container will contain many thousands of parts but will cost about $1500 to ship from store to store which is likely to be less than a Dollar an item. In fact the manufacturer will charge a percentage for transport so that a filter will have maybe 10C transport while a $100 part will have maybe $2 added.

So you have doubts. Hmm.
Huw
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They sure do, and when they do, the price for them goes up. The point wasn't that the parts had to travel, but that shipping them added to their total cost. Unlike your examples, parts for foreign makes here in the states cost much more (not just a dollar or two) than similar parts for domestic.
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wrote:

Not true here in Canada. The parts for my GM and Ford cost more than the same parts for Toyota and Honda - and are needed more often. And Hyundai parts are even less expensive and they come farther.
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I have followed your ping-pong with Pooh Bear but I am not clear about the relevance of an Atlantic Crossing. Last time I did it it took no more than 7 h.
And it took only 11 h to cross that ocean and even cross the American continent to get to LA. It even takes up to an hour less going the other way.
DAS
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Parts don't go quite as fast, nor do they get here at no cost. Hence the fact that they cost more once here. It has been supposed that the difference is only a dollar or two, but in a capitalist economy, the seller can sell at the price of his choice, so long as he is the lowest price (only?) and a demand exists.
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grunt grunt guffaw! now my nose is cleared, bull shit!
1/4-1/2 ton pickups in town regularly move people, carry construction supplies, are used for small businesses and often have better mileage than cars. 3/4-1 ton frequently tow boats, trailers carrying 4x4's, skidoos, boats. in the rural areas, only poor locals do not have at least one truck, regardless of age -- if we didn't have them, we would lose our suspension in a hurry, and would pay a fortune to have wood delivered, not to mention loading the box with propane tanks, maybe oxygen and acetelyne tanks, gas containers for gasoline, chain saw oil, diesel, and groceries, since a trip to town can be expensive so it's not done frequently, not to mention dog food -- 80 kg a month for most large dogs of which two is a good idea for security.
need i mention that most people who drive trucks are very handy? they can usually build their own decks, fences, sheds, patch their roofs, fix most things, have automobile basic skills, if not outright specialists in at least one of framing, foundations, general construction, electricity, plumbing (installing septic systems, wells, sump pumps, holding tanks, systerns, underground lines to the outbuildings), fixing heavy machinery, logging, milling, farming, automotive, welding, hydraulics (for homemade wood splitters etc.,) small motor repairs ... the list goes on. how could we do all this without a pickup?
most of us lead very busy lives (thread about work hours as compared to many countries) whether urban or rural and welcome is the day when the bed only contains fishing tackle, tent, camping supplies and clothing and maybe a shot gun or two!
rach
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Rachel Easson wrote:

All your writing does not change the fact that 1/2 ton trucks are not common in Europe and that 1 ton payloads are almost universal. The 1 ton trucks are very much smaller than yours though and are typified by the Toyota Hi-lux.
Huw
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I misunderstood Huw. I thought the point you were making was that little trucks are not common in europe, but in north america 1/2 tons are very common but typically only carry fishing tackle.
I was explaining that 1/2 ton truck owners here USE their trucks to WORK. (and most of us need an 8' box)
rach
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On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:35:31 -0500, "Rachel Easson"

Maybe in your town, but the overwhelming majority of truck owners DO NOT utilize them 90% of the time.
Excepting the asshole trolls like LBMHB, most people have no issue with tradesmen using trucks.
************************* Dave
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