carb needed for 73

I didn't bash you and I wasn't being antagonistic. If I wanted to spin you up I have a pretty good idea what buttons to push. If you must, go back and read your post that I replied to. You were going on about Mormons telling lies and Catholics and Pentecostals not following the Bible. Then you asked why people give you flack for your proselytizing. So I told you. You might not like what I said but I didn't say it to be mean to you. Do you want me to be dishonest so your feelings don't get hurt or do you want truth?

No, Budd. You weren't wrong to believe that. I still don't completely understand your points of view and I probably never will. I don't agree with you on many religious topics but I've never told you that your beliefs are wrong. Have you wondered why in all those questions I've never asked what your denomination is? It's because I didn't want my prejudice to interfere with the discussion. I wanted to know what you believe not what the denominations stand for. It doesn't matter if you are Eastern Orthodox or Pastafarian. You might prefer Biblical canons to the works of LaVey, but it doesn't matter to anyone except /you/ which one /you/ choose to believe. It's an individual choice and we all have the same right to it. Do you think it's right for someone to tell /you/ that /your/ religion is wrong? Do you think it's acceptable for you to do that to others?

Please show me where I was telling you what your religious beliefs should be.

Nice strawman, but I *can* tell you you're incorrect, and your constitutional free speech rights haven't been intruded upon one iota!

Sheesh!

SMH

Ken,

As a Christian that believes the Word of God to be true and accurate, I have to be truthful also, to everyone. To lie is a sin.

Mormonism is full of lies that have been disproved many time by the secular world (Book of Abraham, "revised hieroglyphics" language for just two items), Catholics have added much to Christianity which is not supported by Scripture (just a couple: Purgatory, the magical Eucharist), and in the Pentacostal denominations, one claims they can teach you to speak in tongues (a prayer language is a gift from God and personal in nature), another says you have to speak in tongues to be saved (not supported by scripture), and most don't "interpret" the tongue being babbeled according to Scripture ( "If one speaks in an unknown tongue, let one or two interpret,,, If many speak in an unknown tongue, would a stranger think you to be mad?",,, and even the Apostle Paul said, "I would rather speak five words to your understanding than ten thousand in an unknown tongue.")

Thank you, Ken, for easing my mind.

This is the crux of the matter. Nowhere did I tell anyone anything that was not found in the Bible, which is my only source for answers. Nowhere did ___I___ say to anyone they were "going to Hell" unless the Bible said they were, and I only stated what the Bible said. I am but the messenger in that respect.

No, I believe the whole mess runs more deeply than that. Over the past years, I have noticed a troubling change in this group over the years where honesty, truth, civility and good, accurate answers have taken a backseat to situation I would not want a child to read. Yes, there are a few that still give excellent answers, and they are to be praised for it, but you have some that can't pour water out of a boot with directions on the heel and they should be corrected when neccessary.

I believe everyone should know where their beliefs / denomination strays from the church set up by the Disciples ( Jesus did not start Christianity, He was just the Messiah) if for no other reason than to let them know where conflicts are with Biblical teachings. That is part and parcel of how the Apostles spread Christianity centuries ago (remember where Paul confronted the Jewish converts that were insisting Gentile converts be circumsized and the movement to make the "correct" day of worship to be Saturday?)

No earthly denomination is perfect. I do not claim perfection either, but I am trying. And I want my friends to be there with me. Is that wrong?

From my experience, my own comparisons based on what they believe and teach, the denominations closest to what the Disciples originally founded, and this is where the Mormon claim the church has apostasized fails because lineage is directly traceable, are the Evangelical Free Church (non-denominational), Calvary Chapel (non-denominational), and Southern Baptist (SBC) denominations. The last one barely makes it in the group...too many man made laws. I attend a Southern Baptist currently because of it's availablity, though, personally, I am non-Denominational.

My beliefs are what is found in the Bible and with nothing added from man. My goal, if any, is to just be the same kind of Christian as would have been found in the first century before any denominations were thought of. Yes, there were some that said, " I am of Paul" or " I am of Apollos", but that only referred to who was the Apostle that brought the Word of God to them, not a denomination. However, I do think it was the "inspiration" for the later denominations.

Here is what I believe:

Budd

If it is a SIN to LIE, then why are you LYING! You have too told Miles that he is going to Hell!!!!! If you are going to PREACH it, then why the hell don't you PRATICE it!!!!!!!!

My free speech rights aren't in question. It's freedom of religion. Looking back, I see that I made a poor choice of words to explain my thought. I should have used the word "authority" instead of "right". You can tell me that you /think/ I'm incorrect but you are not in a position to tell me what /is/ correct. Your freedom of speech has no authority over my freedom of religion. Freedom of speech allows you to string together whatever words you want and blurt them out, but you still can't tell me what religious choice to make. You have the ability, but you don't have the authority. You can

*tell* me what to do, but *you* can't tell *me* what to do.

The scripture is written by who? God? Wasn't it was man writing the word of God? What if a man hears another message from God? It can't be written into the scripture because the scripture is closed. So if it isn't in the scripture it can't be true? Did God say that He will never speak to man again after the writing of the scripture is complete? You claim to follow the word of God but you won't believe anything less than 2,000 years old. If you doubt any man that claims to hear the word of God now why do you believe what was written so long ago?

You claimed that you can (only) judge non-Christians. Telling (or quoting the Bible to) a non-Christian that they are going to hell is an empty threat for the most part. The only people that will take it with any meaning is other Christians who you can't judge. Why bother bringing it up?

I found the position of your most quoted reference interesting.

I just deleted a long account of the denominations that I visited after joining the Navy. The more I wrote the more depressing it got. I do think you would have liked the part about the singing and dancing church. I think that really /was/ Reverend Cleophus James.

Do you think it bothers Mormons or Jehovah's Witness that you think the label "Christian" doesn't apply to them?

No Christian source denies the Bible was written by many men who were inspired by God.

If a person can be inspired to write a famous poem about a tree, a part of Creation, why couldn't the Creater inspire men to write about Him accurately?

The Bible covers this when, in Matthew, iirc, Jesus talked to the crowd about not following if someone comes along and says the" messiah is in the desert" (_another_ messiah). IOW, if another comes along claiming to have found a messiah and not the one found in the Bible, then don't believe them. This is what Joseph Smith has done and what makes it even more odd, they teach the Bible is incorrect, yet they use selected portions to "prove" themselves (always out of context). To compound the matter, none of their doctrinal books, Doctrine and Covenants, for example, even follows the Book of Mormon which teaches a Triune god, not polytheism.

The Palmyra, New York court system has, on record, convictions against Joseph Smith as a fortune teller, Diviner (Fortune Finder), and con artist. It is recorded that he married multiple wives after sending their husbands on missions for the church yet claimed he did no such thing (lying).

Jesus, before He began His ministry, was a carpenter.

Which would you find more believable? A crook or a carpenter?

In II Timothy 4: 1-4, Paul teaches that in the latter days men will allow strange, non-Christian doctrines to be taught as being Christian and thusly pollute the Word of God and that Christians are called to rebuke those that would corrupt God's Word.

Because, Christians are supposed to tell the un-saved of their destiny in hopes they will turn to God (the Great Commision is for all believers and no where does the Bible say only selected individuals can preach and teach the Word of God).

Yep, and the last paragraph is the crux of the matter. I do not condemn anyone to Hell, but the Bible says God does if they do not have a personal relationship with Jesus.

I am the messenger.

We sing, nothing against it in the Bible, we dance, again it is not condemned UNLESS IT IS DONE TO AROUSE SEXUAL PASSIONS WITH SOMEONE THE DANCER IS NOT MARRIED TO (IOW, a stripper stripping for money is a sin.)

Ken,

It doesn't matter what I say or believe at all, nor what anyone else says or believes. What matters is what they say about the Second Person of the Trinity. I don't care what they think of me as a person, because, for example, I know things about the LDS church that at one time put a death sentence on me by the hierarchy of the church.

Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Diety of Jesus, His bodily Resurrection, his sacrifice as full payment for sin.

If a denomination limits Jesus to anything less than fully God AND fully human, then it is not Christian by definition.

Budd

If I were so inclined, I could *try*!

And of course you'd have the right to tell me to piss off!

SMH

Why was that carpenter nailed up on a cross?

I'm not trying to tell you it's wrong for you to sing and dance in church. I couldn't keep up with them.

Interesting theory you have there.

But do you think it bothers them that they are not labeled "Christian"? Do you think it bothers Muslims that /they/ are not labeled "Christian"? Do you see where I'm going with this? If it's a different religion, why do you care so much what it's called?

I /could/ tell you to piss off. But I won't. ;^)

Bless ye!

SMH

According to the Bible, Jesus was fully God and fully man, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit (and not thru sex with the Holy Spiritas the LDS believe). He lived a sinless life as a child in nazareth and was taught his eartly father's trade, carpentry. He came to teach Man the truth, that we are not worthy of God's notice, that we cannot become worthy of God's Love by our efforts, to love one another, to do all we can for each other, even our enemies.

To make us acceptable (sinless) for God's Love and a place with God in Heaven, He was the sacrifice for all of mankind's sins on the cross, to erase those sins. Three days later, by the Jewish reckoning of "days", He rose from the dead to bring us, as believers, eternal life with God in Glory, be it the time in heaven or in the New Jerusalem.

Before He returned to heaven and the Right Hand of God, He commissioned all believers to spread the truth, correct and rebuke errors and watch for His return.

Why was he nailed up to the Cross? For you and me and T-bone, and Larry, and Roy and everyone else.

I can't either any more. But I do have a slow dance with my wife on our anniversary and Valentine's Day.

Not a theory, Ken. If I or anyone is willing to accept the contents of the Bible as literal truth, then it is the final word on everything.

God said it, that settles it. It really doesn't matter what anyone believes.

If they know they are not Christian, they should not claim to be Christian. If their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, they are not Christian.

Nope, because they'd rather see all non-muslims dead, enslaved or converted to Islam.

Today, at the Parts Plus store (still trying to sort out that danged Lebaron A604 transmission) I saw a late 70's Chevy / GMC ( no badge but obviously one or the other because of the saddle tanks) with a badge on it's side that said "F250 and another that said "Powerstroke".

Badging the truck as a Ford did not make it one and neither will claiming to be Christian make a denomination Christian, only following what the Bible teaches, as it is written, can do that.

As a Christian, the Bible tells me to warn others of false religions, including non-christian beliefs.

Budd

Oh no!! You aren't blaming me for this!! I wasn;t around yet. You on the other hand must have been. Figure it would take ya that many years to become such a stubborn, objectioable, PIA!!!

Yeah, that too. But I was asking about the chain of events that lead to the crucifixion. My point was that Barabbas (a crook) was set free but the sinless carpenter was crucified by popular demand. People don't always side with the carpenter.

I thought the Reverend Cleophus James reference would have tipped you off. If you still don't know who he is watch this video of him in action:

was just like that but without the vertical leaps.

Maybe his truck made him mad and he was punishing it.

And sometimes people do God's will without realizing it: in order to eradicate the sins of all men, Jesus had to be sacrificed as the Lamb (the traditional sin offering was an unblemished lamb) of God, to do so required the Jews offer Him to be killed, so they set Barrabas free and crucified the Lamb.

Now, just who killed Jesus? everyone of us.

I didn't recognize the name as I've neve watched all of the "Blues Brothers", but I know what you mean. Some Baptists get rather enthusiastic, but it doesn't mean they are not scriptural. King David danced before the Lord as the Ark was being carried to the threshing floor.

I have some difficulty with pastors that _only_ preach the salvation message (hellfire, brimstone and damnation) even when they know there isn't anyone unsaved in the audience, but never teach what the Bible says. For years, this was common among the Southern Baptists, for example, but in the past few years, more pastors are teaching the Word before leading into the invitation.

ROTFLMBO!!!

Maybe he was trying to get an upgrade to work? ;)

Budd

First ammendment, free speech. Tell anyone what you want.

Well, the secular folks can't agree on any religion. So, you'll have to do what I did. Study with Mormons, and pray to know the truth.

Oddly enough, I've seen some of the type of web sites you've sent in the past. They (the websites) are the ones not telling the truth. I wonder about you, sometimes, also.

Yes, you are correct. I worded that all wrong.

The LDS teachings are very similar to what you teach. The exceptions being that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, not the son of the Holy Spirit. Can't you even get a basic LDS teaching like that straight?

Buddy, you really ought to study with some Mormons. I think that if you cleared your mind of the lies you're spouting, you might find out what Mormons really believe. I think it could really be an eye opener for you. You've been wrong so many times so far. I don't think you know what you're railing and ranting against.

Incidentally far from being "not worthy of notice", we are all greatly loved by God. Who wishes to see all of us return. But as with most big families, some folks will wander and never come back to the fold.