Diesel cars are coming back

With ultra-clean fuel available at pumps, diesel cars are re-entering the U.S.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With rising gas prices, diesel cars and SUVs are
gearing up for a major American comeback after a brief appearance 25 years ago. But if all you remember are the smell and noise, you might not recognize the new leaner, cleaner versions.
Back in the early 1980's, 80 percent of the cars Mercedes-Benz sold in the U.S. were diesel powered. General Motors sold diesel Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs.
The reason then was obvious: Adjusted for inflation, the cost of gasoline then was about $3.15 a gallon. Buyers were looking for a more fuel-efficient way to drive.
Diesel engines were noisy, they were slow [I drove my Aunt's Mercedes..seemed like 2 minutes to get to 60] and they puffed out nasty polluting smoke. But they used much less fuel than gasoline engines, so buyers were willing to put up with the downsides.
As gas prices went back down, relative to other costs, and environmental regulations became stricter the tide of diesels rolled back across the Atlantic leaving only memories of clanky, foul smelling diesel cars.
Today, while half the cars sold in Europe are diesels, diesel market share in the U.S. is about 3.5 percent and that's mostly pick-ups, according to R.L. Polk & Co.
With a hungry European market to feed, diesel development has continued, creating turbocharged diesel engines that perform better and pollute less. Today's diesel cars are virtually indistinguishable from their gasoline-burning siblings. Except they use a lot less fuel..............
http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/05/01/diesels/index.html
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wrote:

Not quite true as they are nasty NOx generators. So bad that even if you reduce their NOx emission 75% they still exceed gas NOx by a wide margin. Until recently they can basically been unregulated in NOx emissions. Stricter controls will cramp it more in future. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
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On Thu, 03 May 2007 21:04:17 +0000, SnoMan wrote:

dude we get it. you hate diesels.
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On Thu, 03 May 2007 20:38:29 -0400, Chris Thompson
No, you miss the point, I hate engine that are dirty and smelly at times. If gas engine had as few emission restrictions as diesels have had they would be different animals today. The point I am making and that diesel lovers hate to talk about when their ego is deflated is that they are going to have to comply in future and clean up their act which is going to increase that purchase and maintainance price in future and when you do the bottom line where you add up purchase price, fuel, maintainance and such over life of vehicle it will likely not save you a dime and likely cost you more out of your pocket to own and operate. Also the future lays with engines that will be able to run gas, alchol (grain or coal based), Biobutanol, CNG, Propane and P-series fuel and this will be gas style motors. Diesel has a very limited diet potentail and bio diesel offers no long term solution for masses though some like to think otherwise. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
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On Fri, 04 May 2007 10:59:29 +0000, SnoMan wrote:

now your talking major engine redesign (your gas burner will run on these fuels) as the engines in cars today will not be fully efficient with these fuels as the engines are not built to run those fuels. if you want a engine to be efficient you build it to run on a fuel, not adapt it to run a fuel. your propane/CNG fuels require a different distribution infrastructure that isn't in place. this costs money to put in place and who do you think is going to pay for that infrastructure?
and yes i am one of the people who like bio for a resource, I'm not saying stop researching anything else but i do see it as a much more viable alternative than CNG. because of the infrastructure and engine requirements to run it at full efficiency. as i have stated before, you put bio in an existing truck it runs with little change in performance (mine does). but you put alcohol in your gasser and the performance/mpg drops huge.
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On Fri, 04 May 2007 07:40:59 -0400, Chris Thompson

You are wrong here. A gas engine as it sits can run on Biobutanol stock (just needs different fuel line hose or aclhol compatable ones) and P-series fuel will run too (pentane based). Alchol fuel can run as well with bigger injectors and proper hoses. Alchols does better with higher CR but americas love for 87 limits that. BioButanol and P-series fuel need no compression changes and while Bio Butanol uses a fermantation process simular to ethanol, it has only about 10% less BTU per gallon than gas while Ethanol has about 40% less. It will be a few years before you see Biobutanol and P-series in volume but the whole science behind them is that they will work in a current motor with little tweaking, if any, and run well and Biobutanol does not have the issues with cold weather starting that ethanol does. Nor will P-series. As far as CNG or Propane, again they can work in a current motor with a change of fuel feed to engine but they can really shine with higher conpression as again we are strangled by this 87 octane thing. If they would take 87 of the market (phase it out) and go to one grade of fuel of 93 octane or so (kinda like a diesel has one basic grade), car makers could make cars with much higher compression with better power and MPG and better efficency with fuels such as alchol, CNG and ProPane. The funny part is 87 octane is making fuel cruch worse because it force less effiecnt engine design which require more fuel to do same job but most do not realize this. Also if they sold only 93 octane then they could use other tanks for other kinds of fuel. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
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You just described a diesel.
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Still sucks WRT energy density. Forget having a usable trunk or cargo bed. Infrastructure still lacking, forget taking a cross country trip. BTDT.
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Then you hate all engines.

The reason the diesels had fewer restrictions in the past was because there were fewer of them. The new restrictions are quite a bit tighter, especially for the fuel.

Sorry, had you not noticed the past 10 years of Cummins Engines for OTR applications? All of them are using the Interact System, and all are electronically controlled. Thus, they have been clean for a number of years. Prior to that, diesel emissions were mainly particulate. As such, a gasoline engined car driving on a dirt (or a dirty road) road would stir up more dust. Take a look, and you'll find that diesel fuel has always burned cleaner than gasoline when it comes to most anything they "sniff" for at the tailpipe. This assumes proper tune to the engine, of course.

Actually, not all that much. The Cummins adds a significant amount to the price of a truck, but then so did the V10, and the Hemi isn't much better. However, this additional price can be recovered in the higher resale value.

False. A diesel wants filter changes and oil changes. Filters are cheap, and easily changed. A gasoline engine wants sparkplugs, coils, wires, AND filters and oil changes. Furthermore, the oil change intervals on the gassers are shorter. Time to install the plugs and wires can add up in labor charges, especially if you own one of those nifty Ford Triton engines.

You are sadly misinformed. In fact, you obviously don't know that one safety hazard of owning a diesel for industrial applications is the need for an auto-shutdown device. This prevents the engine from over-revving in the event that combustible materials are sucked into the engine, such as gasoline fumes, chemical vapors, or even coal dust. A diesel will burn diesel No.2, as well as a wide range of similar fuels, such as kero, JP, home heating oil. Further, it will run on CNG/Propane/fuel vapor, or any liquid fuel that could be made to lubricate the injection system.
Again, you are simply talking out your ass.
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wrote:

The reason they did not have them is because they played the fuel card too claiming sulpher in fuel would negate emission control and they might not have added increased restriction now had not Detriot exploited this loophole for profit.

You are mistaken here. Diesel have always been low on HC and CO but a lost cause with NOx (up to 20 times worse than gas at times) because there was no NOx limit on them. Also what in misleading about diesel emissions is that they move a LOT more air through them so say 30 PPM or HC on them is actually a lot higher than 30 PPM on a gas motor and the higher air flow dilutes the PPM but not GPM (Grams Per Mile). They have also had a long running battle with suspended particulates and will it is improving it is a polutent that is not a problem with a gas motor. If diesel had been follow same rules as gas motors have for year they would no be in wide use in SUV's today because of the cost of compliance.

This is highly debatedable because around here anyway, used one are not selling well nor are new ones. Also given incentive on new truck a few year old diesel is no a asset at trade in. I have a friend that has a 2005 that he paided 45K for that is loaded but he is tired of living with it and its payment and the savings that never materialized as want to get rid of it but they will not even give him 25K for it and it is cherry with only 30K miles on it. (because peopleare buy cheaper gas trucks new here) So you theory on you get more is highly debateable.

False, diesel filters generally cost more (and do not foget fuel filter changes too) and it takes a lot more oil in crankcase too so you can change oil even more often in a gas motor than diesl and still pay less. Next on plugs and wires, well they can last 50 to 100 K any the money you saved on oil change will easily pay for this and they are real easy and cheap to fix. When you diesel has problems (like injectors and such) out of warranty you will cry when you foot the bill. I know of a guy around here last year that blew a cummins in a 05 dodge from boosting it and dealer would not cover warranty it because of abuse and it cost him 25 grand to fix!!!!! (he has about 70 grand now in a 2 year old truck that is worth maybe 30 if his is lucky, he saved a lot of money here huh) You could blow several gas motors for that price. If diesel were not so expensive to buy and repair it could be differnt but I do not want a truck that it can cost more to repair motor than truck is worth when it is not very old.

Boy are you full of it.and what does a RPM limiter have to do with this as gas motor have them too? BTW, home heating oil is number two diesel without road tax (I heat with it) so this is not new fuel and sure you can run kero but it is from same fuel stock and has less BTU too and it is not a alternate fuel either and same with JP4as they are ALL petro based. You run a diesel on gas you will blow it up from detonation real quick and while you can use very limited LPG or CNG injection to reduce emissions you cannot run it on it alone.

They only one talking out their arse on this is you because you let your ego talk before you get facts straight. - "Engage your brain to look are the facts before you engage your mouth or keyboard" ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
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Sort of (same as) back in the 70's when the available fuel would have poisoned catalytic converters.

There is a NOx limit on your truck, but you ignore it.

The federal emissions test procedure only measures in grams per mile. Your point?

Since I know for a fact that none of this is up to you, how do you know for certain? Your frustrations do not necessarily project onto the entirety of the automotive industry. IOW's, forget what your inflated ego is telling you.

Okay, so your area is in a recession. So, buy a tin cup with some pencils in it.

And a comparable truck with a gasoline engine is bringing how much in trade?

No, debate. There are lots of people who don't know the difference between price and value. Sort of like how you don't know the difference between chicken salad and chicken crap.

My cost on a NAPA gold oil filter to fit a 06 Cummins is $7.70 My cost on a NAPA gold oil filter to fit a 06 6.0 Vortec is $5.88 Fuel filter Cummins $13.85 Fuel filter Vortec $13.66 Thing is; I know I won't have to battle rotten fuel lines on the Cummins when it's time to change.

And you think that is a bad thing?

Again, you only know price, not value.

Or they don't and now you're buying new catalytic converters for $1000.00

You must buy crap plugs and wires. explains why you have to jack the ignition timing to get it to run half way decent...

Yeah, like GM never has problems with their injectors... There's a guy in Indianapolis who's getting rich off of them!

DUH! Don't blow the engine, problem eliminated. Good god, you're a Gomer!

Ignorant dolt, he said "auto shut down device" NOT 'rev limiter.' (he's crackin me up I tell ya!)

You just LOVE to see yourself type, don't you?

Says the guy who thinks a diesel emergency shut down is the same thing as a rev limiter.
Off to Google ya go Snofart!
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On Fri, 04 May 2007 14:15:05 +0000, SnoMan wrote:

how much do you pay for your oil filters and gas filters (yes gasoline vehicles have fuel filters too)?
as far as your amount of oil...lets look at some examples.....
my grandmothers f-150 holds 6 quarts changed every 3,000 miles (that's 12 quarts every 6,000 mind you plus the additional filter for the second change)
my old 96 s10 held 5 quarts also changed every 3,000 (10 quarts in 6,000)
my 86 d100 also 5 every 3,000 (do we really need to keep the 6,000 figure going?)
my 99 2500 v10 held 8 quarts every 3,000 (hmmm that's 16 quarts every 6,000)
and the 05 Cummins you despise so much??? 11 quarts every 7,500 miles
looks to me that the gas burner best case scenario nearly ties the diesel and for the most part exceeds the diesel oil requirement.
by the way, the Fleetguard oil filter (that's a Cummins filter mind you) is $7.50
and the fuel filter is $11.95 hardly a bank breaker....
now just curious, what's your oil and fuel filters cost you?? i could call the local parts house and find out if ya REALLY need me to.
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Hydrocarbons and CO were the two worst for the gassers, and were far worse than the diesel, thus negating the advantage in NO2.

Actually, any engine only moves the displaced volume through on any given two revolutions for a four stroke engine. As such, my Cummins 5.9 moves the same amount of air as the 360 (5.9) gasoline engine. What confuses you is that you think the gasser is moving less A/F mixture because its not at WOT. Fact is, a diesel burns far less than all of the O2 in the cylinder unless its at WOT. As such, PPM is exactly what it says it is, PPM, and not some fraction thereof because you think its wrong.

More utter and total bullshit. Diesel engines are far more efficient simply because of the BTU content of the fuel alone. Factor in the lower RPMs, and the engine design, and the diesle engine is far superior. Want proof? What is the overwhelming fuel of choice for large OTR trucks? Hint: despite your absurd beliefs, its not gasoline.

Sorry, its not highly debatable. Dodge 2000MY, 2500 QC SWB, 80,000, excellent condition, trade in value:
Diesel $11,200, 5.9/360 V8, $7,150, 8.0/488 V10, $7,075 (source: www.kbb.com)
Check any diesel truck, and you'll find that they sell for more, even used.

Um, no. Check Kelley, Edmunds, NADA, whichever...

My oil filter costs me $7 on the truck, $6 on the 2.2 turbo. Fuel filter is about the same cost on both.

Wrong. I use 12 quarts in the truck, and run 2/3 times as far as the car on 5quarts. Its about even.

False. I don't care who told you that plugs will last 50k, they will NOT. I've seen cars RUN with the plugs that old, but they are less than peak efficiency and usually have problems. Plug wires are junk at 50K unless routed well. Even so, in the lifetime of my Cummins, using your rate of replacement, I'd go through four sets of plugs and wires on a gasser. Thats about $100 a pop, for a savings of $400... assuming I left things go as long as you do.

Um, no. True, the parts cost more, but they also have a higher reliability rate... at least in the Cummins.

Thats an example of stupidity, not a costly engine. (BTW, I don't believe for a second it cost $25K, since the engine new, in a crate is about $7000, short blocks are even less)

Well, when you're an asshole, you tend to spend money above and beyond what's necessary for the rest of us.

Well, lets look at this for a second.... If my Cummins goes the 450k that its supposed to before a major repair, I'd have used three (maybe four) gasoline engines in that time. At $800 for a long block, thats $2400-$3200. Labor... probably equal to that..... so a grand total of about $5000, maybe more. And the engine option only cos me $3800. Looks like I saved $1200 by purchasing a diesel.

Try not blowing them up, they cost less that way.

Obviously, you don't understand what the rev limiter I described is for.

So all the fuels I mentioned will work in a diesel, by your admission.

Sage advice that you would be wise to heed.
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wrote:

diesels have come a long way since the 80's.. they're using EGR systems, electronic controlled fuel injection, dual variable turbos, and a slue of other tricks to make them run cleaner. All of the same tricks would apply to engines used in the automotive industry.. right up to the particulate collectors. IH was claiming that by 2010 their engine will produce cleaner air coming out of their engines than what went into them.
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Sadly, even THAT level of emissions would be less than satisfactory to the EPA etc.
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wrote:

hey, i just said that.

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Strange statement coming from someone who has bragged on numerous occasions that he has the ignition timing jacked up on his gas engined truck.
Your above statement should read; 'I hate engine that are dirty and smelly at times unless it fits my personal agenda.'

Name one emissions component in current use that hampers a gasoline fueled engines performance or driveability. Fact is; it is emissions regulations that forced technology forward to the point that driveability and reliability today couldn't even have been dreamed of pre-emissions control or even 25 years ago.

My guess is; they'll do it before you do.

Price out a spark plug for a 5 valve Triton engine lately? Last time I checked, they were $29.00. Multiply by 8, add labor. Let's not forget their habit for eating ignition coils times eight.

You've always thought "otherwise", that's what makes you the class clown.
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ok, then we get it. you hate all engines.

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Well, I like my diesel 2002 Jetta TDI. Get 37 mpg around town like clockwork and 44 or so on the highway. Not bad for an automatic. Those with manual transmission often get over 50mpg on the highway. I like being about to go 500+ miles and then fill up (the tank only holds 15 gallons). This turbo diesel has lots of pickup can climb hills and pass without even shifting down. I also like talking mileage and the dropped jaws when I fill up next to the big diesel pickup trucks! (Don't hit me, my other vehicle is a Dakota pickup.)
John

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