electrical question

Page 3 of 4  
Neil Nelson wrote:


Look, Neil, there was no "this", and now there's no "them". There are many circuits.

Then you don't care about what I replied to, because that's what I replied to.
"You need to isolate the trailer battery while the truck is cranking. Otherwise the trailer battery will try to help feed the starter. You can use a relay connected to the radio feed, the radio goes off when cranking." - Big Al
"When the truck is parked and the ignition is switched off, the batteries are isolated from each other preventing the vehicle battery from being discharged from electrical usage in the trailer. i.e., the relay is not energized, there is no direct positive cable connection between the two batteries." - Neil
Is the ignition switched off when cranking? Um, no, better not be. So then, you have the batteries connected while cranking, and Al has them isolated at the same time. Are you both talking about the same circuit?
You claimed that in "this circuit" the only time they are tied together is when the engine is running. But Al has them tied together whenever the radio will play. Is that the same thing?

You don't really care about what Big Al said, so you'll just ramble on about your circuit instead. Go ahead...

What's true to you, Neil?
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There are many thick headed people also, but this isn't about you or your minions.

That's quite the crystal ball you've got there.

Is the engine cranking when the ignition is switched on? Does the word "ignition" describe just a circuit? Does the word "ignition" describe a switch which has multiple positions and/or modes of operation? If the component in question is installed in a Diesel vehicle, must we now call it a 'compression switch' because Diesel engine don't have an ignition system?
If a thick headed person is shown to be wrong, does arguing semantics bolster his position?

I never said I would connect the relay to an ignition feed. I only described the state that a particular switch was positioned to.

What circuit? According to you, there is no circuit.

Can you think of a way one might have an advantage over the other?

"Ramble?" I would never entertain the thought of competing with you...

Are you having a problem following the attributes? (that's a question, not an answer)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Neil Nelson wrote:

Oh, look! Neil is starting to call me names now.

Those are "floaters", Neil, they're in your eyeballs.

Don't try to blow a nebulous fog over it, Neil.

So you, and everyone else, would connect the relay trigger to radio power, same as Al would? And that's why "this circuit" covers everything?

Which confirmed what I said. You have the batteries connected while cranking.

You won't answer, so there's NO circuit now?

Sure. Al can turn his key to "Acc." so the family can listen to the truck's CD player over dinner, while his trailer's lights drain the truck battery.

We can argue if you like, Neil, but I might end up naming you Nell. Then you'd get upset.
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Is that what you want Beryl?
I offered an explanation as to why your deductions were in error.
Apparently, it upsets you that you were wrong and that I know more about the subject than you.
I'll make it real simple. (assume you have at least seven fingers and/or toes left) There are seven output circuits from the ignition switch on a 2002 Dodge Dakota; Circuit #2 is hot in the run and start position. Circuit #3 is hot in the run and start position Circuit #7 is hot in the run position only Circuit #8 is hot in the run position only Circuit #9 is hot in the run position and the accessory position Circuit #10 is hot in the run position and the accessory position Circuit #13 is hot in the start position only
From the above factory information, it is easy to see that it is possible to tap into two of these circuits to trigger an auxiliary battery isolation relay so that the relay would -only- be energized when the ignition switch is in the engine running position, the relay would -not- be energized during engine crank and the relay would not be energized if the ignition switch were in the accessory position.
If I were wiring this relay for a customer, I would not wire it as Big Al suggested, not because his way wouldn't work but because his way leaves an error mode that the customer may not realize resulting in a drained vehicle battery. IOWs, because of certain people who can't fathom how a battery isolation circuit works, things have to be made as idiot proof as possible.
Now, feel free to call me any name that you choose; Nell, Nellybell, Bob and Neil, Aardvark, punkin, sweetcheeks, hermaphrodite, etc. because after all, there is nothing wrong with one more confirmation from you of what type of person you really are. FYI, if there was even the slightest chance that anything you say could "upset" me, why would I bother explaining your error to you?
Or say thank you for giving you a bit of free education.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
NELL:

NELL, I want you to pick up where Skippy bailed out. I simply copy/pasted it, you'll have to mentally substitute NELL wherever you see the name Skippy.
--------------------------- My first answer to Big Al wasn't "profound" enough for you. Why don't you elaborate on it a bit?
You probably, no, *definitely*, should comment on my assertion that connecting a 12V car battery to a 12V motorcycle might not be a good idea. Do you agree, or disagree, or have any thoughts at all? Tell us!
How about the parallel battery setup that I called a poor design, Dodge does that don't they? I haven't seen Dodge's dual battery setup personally, but I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned here. And I don't recall ever seeing any negative comments about it. If it's as I think it is, then I just called it LOUSY, and nobody wants to comment? What do you think about it, Skippy? ---------------------------
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I routinely use a 12 volt motorcycle battery as a back up power supply when replacing batteries on vehicles where there is a risk of locking out a radio, erasing seat/mirror/steering column/radio memory settings, on Mercedes-Benz vehicles which have a chronic pattern failure where the front and rear body computers (SAMS) will not re-boot after a power down. I've been using the same motorcycle battery for quite a few years with no ill effect to the motorcycle battery, *any* vehicle battery, *any* charging system. Most trailer break away devices are nothing more than a wet cell motorcycle battery which is connected in parallel to the tow vehicles 12 volt supply system. Draw your own conclusions.

It's the standard set up on their diesel engined (Ram) trucks.

Well bberryll, I think (actually, I know) that GM, Ford and a host of other manufacturers use that exact same parallel battery set up on many of their diesel engined products, and have for quite a few years. Every Hybrid vehicle I've been trained on so far uses multiple battery cell packs connected in parallel. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, but if you know of a better way to supply the necessary amperage needed to start a diesel engine, if you know of a better way to supply the needed starting *and* pre-heater/glow plug amperage demands in a better fashion, do tell us, won't you? As it stands now, two batteries in parallel is the most cost effective method to achieve the needed energy density.
I anxiously await your self aggrandized reply...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Neil Nelson wrote:

No answer. ZERO.

You scored a ZERO on that one too, NELL. Read the question again.

How about two 6 volt batteries in series, rather than two 12 volt batteries in parallel, NELL? That way Dodge, GM, Ford, and a host of manufacturers can deliver the needed ampacity without the parallel design problem.

Not so good, NELL. I'll say you answered the last one okay, so your score is 33%. That's an F-
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 21 May 2007 14:20:15 -0700, Beryl wrote:

How about you explain this so called parallel battery problem??
--
____________________________________________
Chris
05 CTD
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Chris Thompson wrote:

They're electrically connected, but chemically separated.
Voltage across like terminals will equalize, it has to, with the same +12 volts at every + terminal, or same -12V at every - terminal, whichever way you want to look at it.
A failing battery, one that won't hold its charge, will continually drain power from a healthier battery as the 12V present at its terminal tries to recharge the failing chemistry inside.
No problem if all batteries are equally healthy... or equally unhealthy. The greater the mismatch, the quicker the weaker ones take the others down with them. However many there are, doesn't have to be two, they'll all eventually end up at the level of the weakest one out of the bunch.
(Better wait for NELL's opinion)
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It is my opinion that we are witnessing the return of Altovoz.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Why not just use cold fusion?

Good thing it's just you doing the grading.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
NELL:

Golf Cart batteries, NELL.

That's right, NELL. I was being generous giving you full credit on the last one.
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

WOW, and to think that Detroit has been doing it wrong all these years.
You should patent your idea as quickly as possible.
This discovery of yours is going to rock the world.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
NELL:

Wish I could claim credit, NELL, but I read it in an RV magazine decades ago. Kind of funny that it's still news to you.
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yup. The notion that more electrical power can be gotten from two 6 volt batteries compared to two 12 volt batteries -is- news to me.
Let me ask you something;
If one cell in your two 6 volt in series battery invention goes open circuit, will the vehicle 4 way flashers work?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
NELL:

Whoa! Hold on, NELL, did anybody say anything about more electrical power? There isn't more, NELL, why did you think so?
There are still twelve cells, still the same size, same volts, same amps, same power. But now each "cell" is blissfully and chemically together with itself as one, in the same case, instead of being divided into pieces. Now not only the electrons, but also the +ions, can be happy. :)

Without clever design, no way! And they're of great importance with a disabled vehicle. So let me ask you, can you imagine a solution?
It's clear, NELL, you never learned a whole lot about electricity. This conversation about simple batteries tells me that.
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Because
"How about two 6 volt batteries in series, rather than two 12 volt batteries in parallel, NELL? That way Dodge, GM, Ford, and a host of manufacturers can deliver the needed ampacity without the parallel design problem. Golf Cart batteries, NELL."
I know you're going to claim that means something entirely different than what it says, but last time I checked, volts X amps equals watts and watts is the standard measure of electrical power.

Chemically together? + ions?
All your two 6 volt batteries in series equals is a 12 volt battery. I'm no golf cart expert but every 6 volt golf cart battery I've been able to view consists of 3 wet cells in individual compartments. So where this "chemically together" crap comes from in an individual battery much less two connected by a cable is anyones guess. Not surprising being it comes from someone who's best description of a wire gauge is "heavy."

I don't need to imagine a solution. As for clever design, what's this now, adding another red herring to the fray? Your original claim said two 6 volt golf cart batteries in series beats two 12 volt batteries in parallel, now it needs clever design. What next, it will all work as long as you carry a case of road flares? Going to rub some nylon on a piece of amber?

Says the guy who learned his electronics a few decades ago from an RV magazine.
You're a moron, you've proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
NELL:

I never said "more electrical power" came from the series connection. You asked about "a better way to supply the necessary amperage needed", NELL, "more electrical power" wasn't what we were talking about.

It means what it says, NELL.
Put two 6V batteries end to end, + to -, and that's a 12v battery, NELL.
Put two 12V batteries side by side, + to + and - to -, and that's also a 12V battery.
The difference?
End to end is terminated at each end! It's an open circuit.
But side by side is a loop, NELL, current can flow. When the two aren't perfectly matched, and they aren't, some current *will* flow. That's why the stronger battery becomes a charger for the weaker battery, and it goes on, and on, and on... But with any luck, it's a tiny trickle charge that you'll never notice.
Are you starting to get it now, NELL?
You don't know anything about parallel and series battery connections, and you're allegedly some electrical expert. This is amazing.

No kidding! Why are you checking irrelevant stuff, NELL?

Never heard of them? I guess Huckleberry's Car Skool didn't start you out with "Theory of Electricity" or anything like that, you just went straight to tools and how to read flowcharts.

No kidding!

That's the point. Each 2V cell occupies one big compartment. With 12v in parallel, each 2V "cell" is two little compartments.

I told you, and I just retold you. Will you ever stop guessing?

Nobody's going to touch wire gauge, NELL. It's just asking for ridicule for looking it up.

So you expect the 4 way flasher circuit to work without being designed to?

You asked about 4 way flashers, NELL! Remember? We're not redesigning for the batteries!

Silliness won't conceal your lack of knowledge, NELL.

I learn from wherever I can. I've had a couple Electrical/Electronics instructors who also learned a few things from me. I had one instructor who refused to tolerate a student speaking up when he gave the class wrong information, so I left.

Says the Car Electric Wiz.
--
This explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Sheryl, the fact that I dismiss your idiotic ideas as worthless is not proof or even a valid indication that I don't know anything about parallel and series battery connections. Your finger paintings were amusing little girl, but that's about all.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
NELL:

Time to retake the quiz, NELL, you've had a couple of days to study what you missed.
At least make an effort on the first question, NELL. Skipping it just gives you an automatic zero.
The second question is about a car battery connected to a motorcycle. Okay? Not the other way around, NELL, *not* a motorcycle battery connected to a car. I don't know what threw you off there, it should have been pretty clear.
Since I already finished the third question for you, I'll have to change it a little bit. Explain why batteries in series won't have the discharge problem that parallel batteries can have.
--
TThis explains it ALL!!! He was home schooled and his mommy
made his GES diploma for him out of needle point, to go
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.