If Ford had Cummins?

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And if you read your history books, you'll find that Lee Iacocca sold the loan guarantees on the fact that he had a design in hand that was so versitile and efficient, it would sell well and save costs in manufacturing.
IOW, in the question of which came first, the K-car or the billion dollars in loans, its clearly the K-car and the business plan built around it.
Thus, no K-car, no loans.
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Max

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If sales of Cummins pickups "could" have saved Chrysler from anything...it was a failed attempt. There certainly aren't enough Dodge diesels on the road to positively or negatively effect Chrysler either way.
Take a deep cleansing breath.
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i disagree. got any sales numbers? we can argue OPINION all we want, but the sales numbers tell the tale.
i think the redesign in '94 was a great boost in sales, but i do not believe it would have been as successful with any other diesel except perhaps a cat diesel. if any of the big three offered a caterpillar diesel (this entire conversation is afterall, hypothetical) they would take the lions share of the market over night.
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Nathan in Montana
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I'm just curious... Anyone know what percentage of pickups that Dodge sells have the Cummins? Maybe now compared to the mid-90's would be interesting...
I remember the "new" Ram front end because everyone suddenly wanted a Dodge Ram, but didn't see many diesel pickups of any brand at that time..
Mac
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OK, here's the facts.... in 1993, the last year of the D-Series, Dodge sold some 78,000 pickup trucks, gas AND diesel. In 1994, the first year for the BR, they sold some 140,000 pickups, gas and diesel.... almost twice the number! It had NOTHING to do with Cummins... as other's have attempted to tell you, it was the styling!
Last year, MY 2006, the Cummins engine accounted for some 70% of the build in the DR2500/3500 series, but the DR1500 (all gassers, BTW) greatly outsold the heavies.
Don't misunderstand... I think the Cummins is great... the best diesel engine out there... I own one! But to allocate to Cummins alone DC's salvation is a gross overstatement.
Finally, do you really believe that DC will drop Cummins just because you hear "rumors"? You may dislike 'em, but the folks at DC ain't stupid. Why do you think they selected Cummins as the source of their new LD diesel when they could have just as easily adapted a MB or Moteri engine that was already in their stable? They did it for one reason... they recognize the goodwill and reputation of the Cummins brand. Just as they have capitalized on the HEMI brand of yesteryear.
As I said in my ealier post, you are overreacting to scuttlebutt, sir! I may be an asshole, but you have jumped ship on this one.
Mike

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i AGREE that the styling sold trucks. HOWEVER, disregard the first couple of years because back then dodge was the only truck with the cool retro look. ford redesigned thier trucks in '99, so lets start around 2000. i believe that the cummins was a MAJOR boost for the dodge line. when i read the camping forums i dont hear ANYONE talking about the looks of todays dodge........only the cummins engine.

certainly.......BUT. marketing is built upon a flagship. the jeep rubicon for example is the flagship jeep. many cant afford a rubicon so they buy the cheaper model wranglers. the rubicon also sells cheaper wranglers. now im not suggesting this is why so many 1500s are sold, but it does play a part. the cummins dodge has an AWESOME reputation.....just read the camper forums.....and this makes the entire dodge truck line more appealing to many. the magic of marketing. perhaps i overestimate the value of cummins to dodge, and perhaps you underestimate it.....but i dont think dodge would be where they are without it.

not at all. i didnt say they would drop cummins. i said IF they do, it will be their biggest fuck up.

i dont buy vehicles based on personal feelings toward some, that much should be obvious since ive bought 5 new new vehicles from them since.

i dont understand how forming an OPINION is an overreaction.

it seems i misread your intentions mike. im sorry about that.
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Nathan in Montana
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Ok, so rather than look at the facts, lets limit the exposure to those facts so the stuff directly inside the window is the only reference. Everything else doesn't count.
Yup, no real change here, its the same Nate.
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Max

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like the LP issue being limited to modified trucks? <rolling eyes>
you get YOUR "facts" straight before you question mine.

and its DEFINATELY the same old max.
.....i still love ya anyway. ;-)
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Nathan in Montana
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<snip>

<snip>
Thanks, Mike... that's exactly the kind of figures that I was curious about...
I was one of many that thought the 95 was bugly when it first came out and wondered why so many 1500's were popping up in the neighborhood..
That front end sure grew on ya, though.. i have 2 of 'em..lol Mac
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mac davis wrote:

It will be interesting to see how those figures look in 10 years.
With alternative fuels (biodiesel, ethanol) getting more attention than ever and diesel engines becoming an option in vehicles that have not offered it previously, I think the U.S. is headed towards a blend of vehicles similar to a European mix. Which means more diesels on the road.
IMO, DC would be crazy to abandon Cummins as their diesel offering. The reputation alone virtually guarentees a larger chunk of the market in the future if they can offer the Cummins in other models.
Craig C.
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Facts [fakts] -noun: The pesky things that get in the way of religious
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Sales numbers were the very reason Dodge restyled the Ram. They had 7% of the market, with half of those being diesels. Figures for 1992 were 46,471 Cummins out of 74,558 produced. In 1993, 49,226 Cummins out of 75,166 total. In 1994, after a restyling of the body, Cummins equipped trucks sold 44,569 out of an astounding 195,372.
Clearly, the Cummins option sold LESS after the restyling, while truck sales were 2.5 times as many. The restyle sold more trucks than the Cummins option.
Source: http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/diesel_sales.htm

Who cares, this is a "red herring".
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Max

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im NOT taking away from the restyle, i KNOW it sold trucks. it put the dodge truck on the map. the profit margin however, is much higher on a diesel. not to mention the number of 1500 trucks sold due to the reputation of the cummins powered dodge. yes im possibly overestimating the level of the contribution of the cummins, just as you are UNDERestimating it.

a red herring implies that im trying to distract the conversation. HARDLY. im simply adding to it. the ENTIRE conversation (read the title) is HYPOTHETICAL. no red herring.
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Nathan in Montana
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No, you HAVE over estimated it. Plainly put, the sales of Cummins trucks did NOT increase with the restyle, while the sales of ALL Rams DID increase with the restyling. As such, Cummins did not sell more trucks in the way that a complete restyling did. The numbers speak for themselves, even if you would ignore them.

Incorrect. You made statements of "fact" that are easily proven incorrect. Bringing another variable into the discussion does exactly what you say it does... you are trying to distract attention from your failure to bring facts to bear in forming an opinion.
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Max

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just as you have UNDERestimated it.

you have to provide the profit margin from each. it shouldnt be to hard for you since you know every goddamn thing in the world max.

i stated my OPINION on the topic at hand, and the FACTS are irrefutable (such as the LP issue)

BULLSHIT. clue max, opinions are just that, OPINIONS. opinions are not formed of fact, else they would be FACTS.
......holy shit and you used to be a teacher?
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Nathan in Montana
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I don't know everything, but I know a bunch of bullshit when I see it.....

But you haven't posted any facts on the LP issue. I've got two opinions, yours and Roy's. Neither of you has statistical evidence to prove your assumptions correct. In fact, you claim your LP was replaced at 99,990, hardly a "known problem" at that mileage. Then you claim it was replaced as preventitive maintenance, so it hadn't in fact failed. Either way, its not a design flaw to have a pump fail at nearly 100k, nor is it a design flaw to have it replaced at nearly 100k as preventitive maintenance.

Opinions SHOULD be based on fact, otherwise they are bullshit. Since you have just shown a basic flaw in your understanding of how opinions and facts relate to one another, I feel confident in my assumption that you are once again throwing bullshit around.

No, but thats been a general assumption by many of you.
But Teachers do require facts, not conjecture, evidence, not opinion. Just the same as lawyers, judges, and interestingly enough, cops and the accused.
Apparently, Joe Sixpack only needs a reason to talk, and he'll say anything.
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Max

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Max, not trying to provide statistical evidence. Just a opinion based on my experience. This isn't a friggin'courtroom. Take a look at the tdr, 2nd gen. 24 valve engine and transmission(1998.5-2002) search, lift pump failure. There are close to 400 post's concerning failures, and no, I didn't read them all.. If you remember DC changed the lift pump or at least the part#. Could it have been because that a failed lift pump would cause the failure of a more expensive ip? I don't know, but they finally seem to have it fixed. Now I'm reading and hearing about the pump in the tank. That ain't a roadside r&r. Time will tell.
You and Nate try to play nice.<G>
Roy
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For the record, the lift pump failures have been more prevalent that DC or Cummins would like however when compared to the number of trucks sold with the Cummins, it is a statiscally small number.
Keep in mind, that when the failure is YOURS, it IS a crisis since those puppies ain't cheap.
Also, keep in mind that most of the posts in TDR (and elsewhere) are about problems. No one takes the time to post about bad stuff not happening so the info on those sites are skewed to the failures.
The people who are happy and have no probs are the SILENT majority!
Mike

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Well, now you've thrown down the gauntlet so to speak. I've also had one replaced on my '01.5. I bought it used in February, 2004 with 49,012 miles on it. The original owner claimed it to be all stock, never modified in any way. I had my local mechanic look at it shortly thereafter and he didn't find any evidence of mods either. What he did find was low fuel pressure indicative of a bad lift pump. He did change it and I submitted his invoice for reimbursement. I heard nothing for a very long time and then got a phone call from DC. They refused to reimburse for labor and only for their cost for the lift pump, $70.00. No amount of complaint or logic would sway them. Nothing DC does now would persuade me to buy another from them. I have three Dodge trucks and two Chrysler product cars, no more when these are gone.
I saw a post on TDR about someone with a Bluebird bus with a 5.9 Cummins in it with lift pump problems. Cummins takes care of their customers. DC weasels out of their problems.
Almost forgot, DC contacted my local mechanic and asked him to send them the failed lift pump AFTER REFUSING to pay for his labor. Had I known before he sent it to them, I would have delivered it personally, up their ass. Bastards.
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Again, this is the biggest issue I've had with Chrysler, only at the dealer level. Customer service has been spotty or bad for years, depending on what level you are dealing.
But Nate never listed it in DC's biggest fuckups.
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Max

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becuase UNLIKE YOU, i dont speak in areas where i am ignorant. my customer service has been excellent......but i wont sit and tell you that poor customer service doesnt happen. that would be a stupid thing to do.
oh wait, thats what youre doing because your lift pump hasnt failed. :-)
yet.
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Nathan in Montana
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