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Budd Cochran wrote:

How Budd? Why can't the big bang or evolution all been by intellegent design?

Theories do have substantial evidence for why its a theory and not just a guess or a hypothesis.

I haven't seen much wonderning on that. It is well known where the limestone for the egyptian pyramids came from. There are questions as to what methods the egyptians used but theres nothing that mysterious that suggests some God built them. Some used to wonder how they aligned one wall with true north and not magnetic north. Thats pretty easy to explain. However, back then there were many Gods, and those religions existed for FAR longer than the current rather young Christianity. We are closer to Jesus' time than the egyptians.
Yep, we disagree on things but thats what makes people who they are. Pretty boring if everyone thought and lived the same way. While I disagree with many facists of modern religion I fully respect ones right to believe and live as they see fit.
Merry Christmas Budd (Yes, the Happy Holidays PC crap is just that!)
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miles wrote:

Ok, lets determine the attributes of God: Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, Holy, and perfect come to mind. "Intelligent Design" is a PC term. Anything, or anyone that could create the Universe would need to be God.
The Big Bang requires violating the First Law of Thermodynamics (a state of equilibrium) to occur, not to mention that most versions (yes, there are many theories) don't explain where the matter for the explosion or the energy for the explosion came from.
Now look at the contradiction: assume that God created the universe and took his sweet time (although God is outside of time as we know it) over a couple million years, then inspired men to write that it took six days . . . oops! A lie. God is no longer Holy and sinless . . .he is no longer god.

What is "substantial evidence"? A broken line of fossils gathered from a multi-square mile area? Fossils from supposedly different eras mixed in the same layer of sediment? A "reconstruction" of an entire skeleton from one tooth? 1000 vertical feet of sandstone layers, supposedly billions of years old and not one single spot in the entire valley that shows signs of erosion between the layers, not even in the Arches National Park area.
Creationists and evolutionists both have the same limited amount of evidence, but each starts with a different set of presuppositions;
Evolution: It's all by accident and took darn near forever and don't worry about the missing stuff or out of place stuff, we'll theorize it away.
Creationist: Since we don't have any evidence of transitional forms in the layers they're supposed to be in, then there are not likely to be any. Since so many things are missing, but it all fits the Biblical record . . .if it walks like a duck . . .

I've seen it since I was a kid in back in the 50's; It seem like just about every year they came up with some new idea of how they built the pyramids, from dirt ramps, slaves and two generations of construction to aliens came down and built them for a spaceport.

Sure, not that far away, but look at Stonehenge. Some of it's stone came from a long distance away.

Miles, I never said a god built them unless you want to allow for the Pharohs that did build tem claiming diety.

Yep. Not a problem at all.

How old are they? If you look at the Biblical timelines, those "old" religions are far younger than the Jewish faith which has it's roots with Adam and Eve (6000 - 8000 years). Among Creationists, all the other religions came after the tower of Babel, about 5000 years ago. Gee, that how old Hinduism claims to be . . .

<LOL> "facists" (Fascism) A Freudian slip, my friend? I know you meant"facets". I thank you and I hope I can always show the same toward you.

Actually, I don't have a problem with it myself. Oh, I will continue to wish a "Merry Christmas" to everyone, but that, to me, is a part of my beliefs, that at this time of year I celebrate the birth of the one I call my Savior. If someone else wishes to use "happy Holidays" that's fine, but do they know the word "Holiday" was originally "Holy Day"???
Happy "'what ever you want to call it but for me it is Christmas"
Budd
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Budd Cochran wrote:

Wait a sec. God is bound by the First Law of Thermodynamics? Budd, I'm not asking why Creationism makes more sense than Evolution etc. I'm asking why you think God didn't create the Big Bang or Evolution or any other theory that traditionally is opposite of Creationism. Maybe God created the Big Bang or Evolution.

So you really believe the earth and the universe is only 8,000 years old in terms of what we call a year?

Evolution can be proven to occur easily in plants. Meaning changing future generations based on stimuli. What you are saying to me is that since its so complex, since we understand so little about it, that it must have been done by God because we can't comprehend any other way. Thats the very reason people of centuries ago thought about things we can explain today. Just because we dont understand it doesn't lend credibility to Creationism.

Not so. It means we have a long ways to go to understanding. You are assuming that we do possess this knowledge. We know very little.
Since so many things are missing, but it all fits the Biblical

The bible doesn't explain many things Budd. Why the different races? Why did God invent disease (I know about the Bibles talk about suffering) but thats just evil to me. There is an endless list of things occurring in our world that the Bible does not explain at all. Why is there nothing written contemporary to Jesus time? Should have been well documented in his time for such a major event.

Name a civilization that practiced the Jewish faith 5,000 to 8,000 years ago. We have no evidence of such a culture but we do have evidence of the ancient egyptians, greeks and romans but they didn't practice anything remotely close.
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miles wrote:

Nope. He's outside both time and the laws of physics as we experience them.

I understand your question, and I'm trying to answer it.
If God had used the Big Bang and Evolution it would ruin His credibility. All the rest of the Bible could not be trusted at all.
Would you be interested in some links to Christian sites that have more information than I can put here?

Yep. Think about it; so many words and descriptions in so many ethnic groups for dragons (dinosaurs), for a huge ( if not global) flood ( Noah. The ancient Chineses language character for Flood is made up of the symblols for "eight people" and "boat")
So many groups have creation stories similar to Genesis, including the Greeks.

Has a kernal of corn grown into a rose? How about a transitional plant starting as corn that's 1/4 rose? The point is: like begets like, dogs have more dogs, fish have more fish. Adaption, otoh, is quite common and can be passed on from dog to dog, corn kernal to corn kernal.
Bacterium have life spans measured, in some species, in seconds and millions of divisions occouring weekly, yet they remain the same except for any adaptions to environment.

Sorry, but the Darwin Theory states that the mutations will be significant departures from the parent, a dog will whelp something not entirely dog and, THEORETICALLY SPEAKING, superior to dog. I can not find any evidence of a scientist, secular or Creationist that has ever found a positive mutation.

Nope, not at all. I'm saying, in the light of pure basic logic, the Creation record is more logical to have produced life as we know it on this toxic planet.
Think about the sheer odds AGAINST evolutionary success . . no Vegas gambler would take them.

Have we explained them? Or are we making guesses? There are no signs posted like in a museum of what each object was used for at these archaeological digs.

Just because we don't understand doesn't undermine Creation. :)

No, I'm not assuming any source of knowledge other than what's in the Bible and what has been dug up. Miles, the layers have been sifted and are still being sifted and the transitional fossils aren't there. Instead they're finding fossils that should not be in that undisturbed layer and revamping the dating to cover the discrepancy.

What different races? All the ethnic groups can intermarry and bear offspring so they are all the same species, Human Being. There is a great diversity of adaptions to the various regions of the earth, but they all carry the same genes as you and I.

That was Man's choice. At the Tower of Babel, as recorded in Genesis, the idea was to build a tower of mud brick high enough to be above any future floods, so God confused the tongues (languages). People naturally grouped together according to language and then wandered away from Babylonia. Over the centuries, adaption to climates took place.

God didn't. When He finished with the Universe, He said it was "good". Then He made Man and Woman and gave them freedom to chose to obey him and never die or they could choose to do wrong. Then Lucifer lied to the couple and convinced them to disobey God. That was when things went downhill.

Like what? Feel free to go to email if you want.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Crucifixion? His Birth? The Resurrection?

No problem, they were the ancestors of the Hebrews whose language has been handed down to the Hebrews with additions over the years from the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Germans, (just about everyone!) and is now the classic Hebreww and Yiddish of today. They worshiped the Three-in-One God, Elohim, who was the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Judah, David, Solomon and Mary. His names of the persons of the Triune Godf are YHVH, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, as we know them today.

No, they drifted away from what became the Jewish faith after the Tower of Babel.
Yes, we have records of those civilizations, but the civilizations you seek were lost in a global flood and their records with them. Their bones became fossils. softer materials, like cloth, leather, paper, etc. would have been destroyed. so we have no idea how far they progressed before the Flood . . .maybe that's where the legends of Atlantis come from.
Budd
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Budd Cochran wrote:

If Avian influenza ever mutates from chickens to humans you will.......
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Jerry wrote:

Only if they can prove conclsively that the virus significantly changed into another viable form...iow, a new strain with large changes not normal to the genome and not merely an adaption to environment.
The key word for both of us is the biggest two letter word in the English language: "IF".
That's where Creationists and Evolutionists really differ: Evolutionists grasp at every little adaption in hopes of discovering conclusive proof of evolution, the "missing link", while Creationists only want what Darwin claimed, a major change in the genetic code . . .a dog whelping a pup that has primate like attributes, an opposable thumb, for example, to prove evolution, until then, Creation is more logical.
I was at Yahoo.com a while ago and saw in the news oddities a story about a Rainbow Trout caught in Nebraska with two mouths, one functional and one not funtional. It's a classic example of negative mutation because the lower mouth just sits there.
Budd
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wrote:

budd
really, you gotta slow down of the coffee. do you ever sleep?
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wrote:

oh, forgot, thank you for the Christmas blessing and my best to you and all your family. Merry Christmas and a happy and healthy New Year.
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theguy wrote:

Thank you.
(Ok, gotta buy another coffee pot cause three ain't keeping up . . .maybe I'll get one for Christmas . . .and a pump to so I can keep it coming non-stop and . . . )
<And Budd wanders off looking for cow to supply his addiction to cream . . .>
Budd
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theguy wrote:

Yeah, sure, uh, . . . .what's "sleep"? ( Hey, Hon, fix me another pot of coffee)
My day runs from 4-5 AM to about 10-12 at night. I've never slept a lot even as a kid.
The trout story had a picture with it and it was the ugliest 'Bow I'd ever seen . . .made me think of Bill Clinton, flashy, fishy and double talking.
<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051221/ap_on_fe_st/mutated_fish ;_ylt=Aif3Q3VGOSj62KeS4mMjjXztiBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA-->
Shows what happens when you freeze yer butt off ice fishing. <VBG>
Budd
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Budd Cochran wrote:

That would imply from the start that people were of a rather advanced intellegence level with a written language at the same time dinosaurs existed. If this is true then vast numbers of civilations lost this intellegence somewhere along the line. Budd, the folklore era of dragons was nowheres near 8,000 years ago. Far more recent times in which they had full written language skills. They didn't talk about dinos, they talked about dragons and drew very articulate pictures of such. Your dino/dragon theory is a far stretch.

Adaptations to enviroment? Thats what evolution is. Generations slowly evolve based on external stimuli.

Your only source of 'logic' is that you can't comprehend and lack knowledge of anything else so therefore it must be Creation. So many civilizations of the past have credited some God for things we now take for granted. We have a long ways of learning to go.

Thats true and I've never said otherwise. There is little evidence that the bible is anything more than a book written by man. Other religions existed for 1000's of years. The Romans, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks etc. had no knowledge of anything remotely similar to Christianty. They had multiple Gods and were very real to them in their time.
Why do the books of the old testement contradict each other? Why was there no account for Jesus' life contemporary to his time? For such a huge important even it surely would have caught the attention of the known historical documenters of the time, mainly the Romans who did document other events of the region.

Huh? It started with Adam and Eve. If my wife and I have a kid, it's not going to be of an Asian or Black etc. race. Where did these very vastly different races come from?

Lucifer? God created everything right? Lucifers only power MUST come through God. There is nowhere else for him to draw his powers from. Angels do not have Gods power. He grants them what he choses to when he choses too. Everything that exists in this world both good and bad must come through God. Lucifer can't create anything as he is not the creator. Things like disease, birth defects etc. can only be created by God IMHO. Lucifer exists because God allows it.

Yes, his entire life and death. There are NO records of any kind written contempory to Jesus' own time. They were written long after his death. Stories of the wise men, the star, Mary and so on and so on were all written LONG after his death. Why nothing written during Jesus own life?

These civilizations were 7,000-8,000 years ago. They must have existed and drifted away within a few years of Adam and Eve.
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miles wrote:

Yes, which is contrary to the claims of the evolutionists. It's curious that if we are smarter today, then why are surgeons being trained with comic books?

Consider what would happen if the genome quality declined over the centuries. . .
Creationists look at the Biblical record as a history as well. Who did the sons of Adam and Eve marry? Their sisters. The genome was almost 100% perfect yet. Then later, at the time of Moses the genome had deterioted to where first cousind could't reproduce, now birth defects are on the rise in general, but higher among second cousins than average.

By what expert? What proof do they have? Radiometric dating is in trouble simply because there is too much radioactive material left.

Which is harder to do? Come up with a derivative language, like the Amercian version of English which is a combination of French, Latin, German, Nordic and Celtic tongues or to come up with one from scratch?
Actually, according to the Bible, the Chinese for example, had a complete language from day one after the confusion at the Tower of Babel. No need to create a new language when God gives you one.
> They didn't talk about

Is it? Many of those dragons fly, like the Pteranadons, many are simply huge like the Bracheosaurs, some swim like the Diplodicus, some are ferocious meat eaters like the T-rex. Fire-breathing? recently, the Discovery Channel did a show on some dinosaurs that they said might have been able to produce posgene gas, which ignites on contact with the air.

No, that is adaption because once the reason for the change is gone the bacterium revert to original form.

That's not classic evolution, but even if true, the chances of all the life on the planet completely dying off go up expotentially. It compounds the problem, not correcting it.

Miles, I once was an evolutionist. BTDT.
> So many

True. Could it be that all those beliefs have a common ancestral source?

How can the non-existant be found? In 150+ years since Darwin, more tha a hundred variants of evolution have been developed but all fail to answer the questions I and others have posed; where did matter come from? Energy? Where are the transitional fossils?

That is one viewpoint, but then how many people have fulfilled several hundred ancient prophecies in just 33 years of their life, including prophecies made 4000+ years before their birth? Only one, Jesus.

Are you sure? Look carefully at the Greek gods and you find anti-parallels to Genesis, with their gods living the Creation story in a complete opposition to the Bible account.

The have spiritual beings they worshipped that had human limitations and frailties. . . they made their gods in thier image.

None do. I can give you at least two links that contradict those claims.

Are you talking about His growing up years from birth to 12 and from 12 to 30? They aren't important as he lived as an obedient child of Joseph and Mary and He learned His eartly father's profession, carpenter. No big deal, just a normal life.

Now are you speaking of His birth, or crucifixion? Both are recorded by Josephus, Roman / Irsrali historian, among others. I have links.

That is my point, there is but one race, Human. All the ethnic groups are just adaptions to climate and habitats that began with the Tower of Babel after the Flood of Noah.
I have an ancestor, according to a Mormon relative, that might have well been African, That genetic coding could pop back up at anytime in my sons kids or their grandkids or . . . but I'm not concerned, they will be my decendants as well.

Correct.
Nope. He was an angel, to be exact, the head angel, a created being with more powers and abilities than man.

Nope, but they have more than you or I. One angel can destroy an army of 50,000 according to the Bible.

He doesn't give Man more powers.

No, Not at first. The bad stuff didn't come about until the fallen angel, Lucifer, tricked Eve to eating the forbidden fruit and sinning agasisnt God.

Right. But he can manipulate our perceptions of natural things.

But that's not what the Bible says happened.

God could destroy Lucifer, yes, but Lucifer is a part of God's Creation which He will keep until He creates the New Heaven and the New Earth.

Weren't the Disciples contemporaries of Jesus? Look at the Gospels, they tell what is important.

Josephus was a contemporary and lived at the time of Jesus, albeit His last few years. Most of his histories were written as he interviewed eyewitnesses, not a long time after Jesus as someone has told you.

No, they wern't. I have links if you're interested.

It was, It's called the New Testament.

According to whom? Atheistic scientist using inaccurate, by their own statements, dating methods and wild guesses when things don't fit?

Within a couple thousand years, by most Biblical scholars, at the most.
Budd
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What you fail to realize (no surprise) is that the claimed omnipotence of your god allows him (her) to toss aside the laws of physics. In order to believe in God one must accept his (her) omnipresence and, therefore, the belief that God is without beginning. If one can accept the notion that God has always existed, then it's just as easy to accept the notion that matter and energy has always existed.

You answered your own query; six days to your god might be 8 billion years to mortal man.
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John Kunkel wrote:

No, they don't apply to the Creator.

Or end.

An item subject to the laws of physics cannot be equal to or greater than the Creator of those laws. Is a cookie greater than the cook?

No, I pointed out the error of believing God took millions of years. The word in Hebrew for "day" in the Book of Genesis is "Yom" and it can only be used to denote a 24 hour day. Everytime it is used in the OT it means only a 24 hour day.
Believe what you wish, John, and I'll believe what I wish. One of us will find out the other one was right, some day.
Merry Christmas.
Budd
"the most fervent devotees of tolerance are invariably intolerant of everyone who speaks about God with certainty." A.W. Tozer, Christian Apologist
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Incoherent prattle. If God can be without beginning or end, so can matter/energy.

Show a source for that claim. Is a sidereal day the same as a calendar day?

If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. (James 1:26)
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wrote:

i can't believe you responded to that statement. where is your mind at?

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John Kunkel wrote:

No, Both had to come from somewhere. This is where the Big Bang gets into trouble, Matter and energy had to come from somewhere.

Oh, good grief, John. Now this is incredibly picky of you. I told you the source, THE HEBREW LANGUAGE.

"Professing themselves wise, they became fools." (and this is from a passage about non-believers, fyi)
Budd
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Says you, if you stand by that claim then God had to "come from somewhere".

Nice sidestep. Do you excel at the tango?
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John Kunkel wrote:

A suggestion: don't ever claim to be open minded because you are not.
One last time, John, if you put any kind of a limitation on God then He ceases to be truly God. So, for you, there is no god because you will not allow anyone or anything to be superior to yourself.
Deny that and you are the hypocrite.

I used to, on roller skates, in Competitive Dance along with 5 waltzes, two other Tangos and a foxtrot.
No sidestep, just your refusal of factual evidence. It's from the Hebrew language.
Budd
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John Kunkel wrote:

A suggestion: don't ever claim to be open minded because you are not.
One last time, John, if you put any kind of a limitation on God then He ceases to be truly God. So, for you, there is no god because you will not allow anyone or anything to be superior to yourself.
Deny that and you are the hypocrite.

I used to, on roller skates, in Competitive Dance along with 5 waltzes, two other Tangos and a foxtrot.
No sidestep, just your refusal of factual evidence. It's from the Hebrew language.
Budd
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