OT: Ping Roy, Larry & other Vets

I don't know if you guys are following the Army body armor thing?
Basically, the grunts parents are trying to buy better or different body armor for their kids, and the Army keeps changing it's mind (big improvement since the
60's, the Army has a mind now), about whether to allow this, or maybe reimburse for it..
I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around this one and wanted to see what your opinions were...
I'm sort of split... I want to see our troops protected as much as possible....
I also realize that the Army has to be uniform/standardized/whatever... Military discipline and individual style and weapons sort of went out with the Minute Men..
Were we just too dumb to get something better than flak jackets, or is it that the volunteer Army is looser and the media coverage closer?
I remember how much we hated giving up our m-14's for the crappy (then) m-16... If we didn't like it, why didn't we go buy something better??
I'm really on the fence on this... not sure which way to jump... Having a kid in the Army and knowing that Pinnacle Armor, maker of Dragon Skin, is a few miles from here really whack the military discipline and standard thing around.. Mac
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I was reading one article that say's the grunts aren't wearing the b/a because of the weight, slow's them down. I can see that as a problem.

I'm with ya bro, whatever it takes.

FTA and the standard/ uniform.

Bro, we never used the flak jacket. We ditched that for more ammo. Dumped the helmet for the boonie as well. I see our foks as carrying way too much crap. Light and fast was the way to go. Now, it looks like they are carrying everything sam issued. Give me some water and all the ammo I can carry, if it get's too heavy I'll use some of it. Sorry, ran out once.

Stole a 12 pump from the mp's. Worked real well.

Bro, it is all about keeping him all in one piece, that is all that is about. Were it me, I'd send him all the stuff that would help. don't ask don't tell. Get him a piece to stick in his boot too, never can tell when he might need it. What are they going to do if sombody say's somthing? I doubt there would be a problem. If so, maybe a Article 15? It blows my mind the army can't get it right but they yell about unauthorized equipment, weapons or whatever.
Roy

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"dragon skin" is supposed to be lighter and more flexible...

Well, I can see the need for standardization of some things, like the weapons..

I think we were in a different type of fight, but I see what you mean... the only time we wore flak jackets was when we were in base camp on guard duty and an officer might raise hell...
Most of the guys over there are riding or patrolling street... I guess they need night vision, gloves, goggles, etc... CAL OSHA??
But then, that's why they drafted kids instead of ol' farts... I can see some poor NCO saying "let's go" and everyone getting out their cells phones and discussing it first.. *g*

yeah, we did a bit of that.. I dumped that POS .45 in a hurry and bought a .38 from an AF guy... But that was against regs, we just took the chance... not sure if it applies here?

That's where I'm kind of stuck... I can see the extra weapon shit... the guys coming back say that it's easy to buy anything you want over there, mostly knock offs made in Pakistan.. It's the armor that I'm hung up on... If it works, give it to everyone, if it isn't as good as the issued stuff, get the issued stuff to everyone..

Mac
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wrote:

Bro, stop and think about it for a second. We are talking about a government that wanted to put our troops into the bradly that was a friggin' bomb. They gave us a AR that at first caused the deaths of a number of troops. I have no confidence in them getting the "best" for them and the "best "is what they should have.
What are the independents wearing? What about the Blackwater folks? They are supposed to be one of the better groups. Doubtful the independents are skimping on their stuff.
Roy
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Bro, tell your kid "Thanks" for me.
Roy
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he had a choice of Korea again or Iraq... and went to Korea..
we told him that if he chose Iraq, WE might kill him.. *g*
I know what you mean, though and will pass it on... he's gonna be in for 20 if we have any choice.. Mac
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Mac,
I'm not a vet. All I had a son in the Navy.
I would like to give my opinion but if you would rather not have it, I understand.
--
Budd Cochran

"mac davis" < snipped-for-privacy@splinters.comcast.net> wrote in message
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Give away old man! <VBG>

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Thanks, Larry, but since Mac asked, in respect for his service to the USA, I wish his permission.
You know, it's the Army Sergeant thing we had drilled into us. "Respect the rank always, but respect the person more if he deserves it".
--
Budd Cochran

"azwiley1" < snipped-for-privacy@cox.net> wrote in message
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wrote:

I appreciate your asking, Budd.. but not only don't I own the NG, I'd really like to hear anyone that has an opinion..
Mac
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Thanks, my friend. I apprecite the chance to speak.
IMHO, all our troops and police need the best available and they need it yesterday.
Too much politicking and cost cutting wastes lives in more ways than just the military, but the military is the situation you expect to see lives lost. The police need better armor and weapons to avoid another SoCal shootout, for example.
What can be done? Cut waste in government spending and redirect that money to R&D for the military and police forces. Give them, right now, the best available.
What would I like to see? Read the book, Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers". (the movie screwed the story up royally) Strength augmenting, self-sufficient, impervious full coverage body armor with built in recoiless launchers of incendiary, HE rounds and HUD sighting for built in machine guns (flight capability optional ).
Yes, it's far fetched, but, given today's technology (carbon fiber, deep sea suit joints, rebreathers, powered artificial limbs, is it all that far fetched in reality???
Budd
mac davis wrote:

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We get those suits.... They get those suits... We develop better armor piercing ammo, etc... Back to the old bigger sword, bigger shield thing... Mac
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Budd Cochran wrote:

It is an EXCELLENT book, totaly distorted in the movie... it made me think things differently...I wish I had read it BEFORE I served my 2 years in the army...
Only objection I would have against exosceletons (which by the way ARE under consideration and some prototypes tested IIRC in Japan of all places) is the power requirement: If something goes bad to the power, then the soldier would either be immobilised or forced to ditch the suit and move totally "naked" in a battlefield designed and fought with "armor" in mind.
If US of A army works the way the Greek army was the time I served ('83-85) then who cares what the "issue" items are? If you find it better in aftermarket AND you don't get in trouble using it-wearing it then by all means, use the best... If my daughter was to enlist (highly unlikely as it is) I would go as far as I could in order to give her the advantage... The Army anyway does not consider people as people but as assets in combat statistics...
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Part of my point... right now, you CAN get in trouble for wearing non-issue..
Then again, like we used to say when deciding if something was worth the chance of getting caught, what were they going to do to us, send us to Nam? Maybe even back to the world for a court martial? Oh, please don't throw me into that brian patch.. lol Mac
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Mac,
First, I could give a flying F^&* about the "Army" anymore, after all the shit I went through. HOWEVER, our troops survival is a totally different story.
The Interceptor Ballistic Armor that they WERE issuing was not too bad, though it is very bulky and does make doing something's cumbersome. I am sure there is something like cumbersome and able to protect better out there. The problem is the damn politicians and the entire political game that has to be played. Get rid of that and they might actually get what they need.

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yeah, Larry... that's always the problem... Most stuff that they get is chosen by who has the most lobby power for their state, not who makes the best product...
Right now, the government is telling Pinnacle Armor to give them a few hundred to inspect, if they pass inspection, they'll test them... Translate to "we'll all be retired by the time anyone makes a decision"..

Mac
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I spent 21.5 years off and on wearing body armor for law enforcement. My son in the Army, 18 months in Kosovo some years back and 14 months in the sand box in Iraq. He is a Special Ops COMO 10th Mountain and has worn at least 3 versions of body armor all US issue
I had worn two different versions and there were not the same as my sons. He was telling me that when they were training the Guardsmen heading to Iraq most of them had what I had used it was 20+ years old. Many of the Regulars gave the Guardsmen their old stuff because it was better than what they had and many of the Reserves/Guardsmen did not have any body armor when they got deployed.
Right now the US Army has thrown up a green curtain to cover their BUTTS because they dropped the ball early on. As of right now the military has issued body armor for all their combat soldiers however is all is not the same nor does it all protect the same.
Early in my career I wore some body armor that weighed over 20 lbs and some of the soldiers are still using the old stuff especially the reserves and guardsmen. The latest and greatest is a heck of a lot lighter and made of ceramic and Kevlar but, with full field gear you are looking at humping 70+ pounds 24-7, try that.
I can see the concerns of the parents and I would not put my faith in our government to provide our soldiers with the proper tools they need to get the job done because I know that they did not. Hell, 3/4 of all the HUMMERS deployed were not armored. When my son got deployed he installed the armor in his hummer before it was shipped and he was glad he did. The thing looked like a brick of swis cheese with all the small arms fire that it took. It is a discrase that our Government does not provide the appropriate tools for our young men and women. Hell I had to ship my son extra mags for his sidearm because they were only issued two mags and good thing I did it saved his ass several times.
Coasty

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On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 06:18:39 -0500, "Coasty" <uscg_ret at comcast dot net> wrote:

I appreciate your info.. but I'm looking for sort of moral answers, too..
Should the troops be allowed to wear and use whatever they want, or should it all be issue?
I saw a grunt on the news that got a medical discharge after being hit... THe Army was charging him for his body armor because they cut it off of him in the ER and didn't either ship it to the hospital with him or make a note that they "took possession" of the armor.. *sigh*
As for the humvees, they shouldn't be armored, IMO... That's what my kid does, motor pool sgt. working on humvees... He says that they are too heavy as it is and with armor they need a diesel tanker following them...
Bottom line on the humvee IMHO is that it replaced the friggin' Jeep.. not the sherman tank or APC... use it for a jeep and not an attack vehicle and you won't need armor.. Mac
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stopping power as a pellet gun.. *g*
Mac
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