OT Poll!!!! Who wins???

Once again, you show that you really don't know WTF you are talking about. How old are you Miles, 15. They can hire them as 1099 employees where they pay nothing more than the $15 an hour or can pay them cash under the table just like they do with the illegals.

Are you really this ignorant Miles or do you just hope that the rest of the world is? I am not talking about some kid with a work permit or some 17 year old that is trying to make some money for their first car or going to the prom. I am talking about adults that need work and don't have mommy and daddy to fall back on and not everyone has your talents, skills, or abilities. I guess that you have redefined liberal to mean a human being with a sole.

Once again Miles, you see only what you want to see. Go to some of the big box stores and take a look at the age of many of the people that are working there. Many of them are far from young adults. You seem to have no problem putting limits on the pay for the unskilled to the point where they really can't survive. Funny how you don't have those same limits on those who's pay makes them rich.

Well Miles, if the illegals all get exported as you claim to want, you will see the worth of many of these jobs shoot up considerably because most Americans simply cannot afford to work at them for the current salaries. Unfortunantly our social programs are so screwed up, people do better not working at all then they would be working these jobs for that low pay when working them cuts them off from most of the programs.

Short of upper management, exactly what jobs a Walmart do you think should earn enough to have these basic things?

By who Miles??? You just said that the majority of citizens in this country do not want them here.

Or so it seems. You just said that they are organizing and making $15 and hour as day laborers. Many of these companies will continue to hire them. They will just make sure they have and take a slight look a the illegal ID's and accept them as valid. It will then be up to the understaffed State agencies to prove that they knew they were fake and they simply don't have either the staff or resources to do it effectively and few would be willing to close down some of these companies and put many citizens of Arizona out of work.

Because they are trying to avoid the recession that will come if it is actually done. Like it or not Miles, due to people like you, our economy has come to depend on them.

Hahahahahahaha, you really do make me laugh Miles. Do you really think that any large company could hire them in mass and be able to hide that? Large construction companies hire subcontractors to do their work and most of them are SMALL BUSINESSES and are the ones that hire many of these illegals. As for the farming companies, the really big ones are so mechanized, they don't need to hire illegals and when they do need short term extra people, they just hire 1099 employees and get may illegals because the pay is so low maost Americans won't or can't do it.

Perhaps because these agencies are understaffed and under funded. The right likes to call it small gubberment but the rest of us call it a load of crap.

What in the hell are you talking about??? The reason Edwards didn't do well is that his campaign didn't fit his lifestyle and he was too far to the left. As for when Kerry and Edwards ran, they were running against an idiot so even their far left viewpoint was still a possible alternative compared to what we already had.

Because during the Clinton years and even with his tax increases, the economy was never better. What Republican can make that claim? The only really far left President that I can recall was Carter and while he is a great man with what he does now, as a President he sucked.

And did YOU vote for him and how far to the left is he really? Not all that far by what you're saying. How many Democratic Presidents did you vote for?

State governments really don't mean much and county even less as seen in the Semper Fi thread.

Perhaps because they have been the ones in power for your entire time in this NG.

Let's be realistic, you don't credit him for anything and blame him for just about everything including most of Bush's screw-ups.

More of your right wing bias speaking.

Exactly, which either forces your family to either illegally hire them or lose money because of them. Thanks for backing up my point.

LOL.

And unless he want's to be a completely ineffective one term president, he will continue with this new viewpoint. Perhaps he opened his eyes and seen the light. Most of the country now see's that the small government free market system no longer works. There are too many people at the heads of industry who like you, care about nothing but themselves. It was this way once before (industrial revolutiion) and as they say, history ignored will be repeated.

Which would be about right so what is your point? What you just said is that these illegals are no more or no less likely to commit crimes than anyone else.

And apparently, neither do you. All you see is the social class that you either are or want to be in and ignore all others.

So I guess that in Mexico, the poor all drive luxury cars and live in 5 beadroom condo's, LOL!

LOL, so in other words with immanent domain, it is exactly like it is here in the US.

And they have but since our goverment is of, by, and for big business, they don't enforce them and now, our economy currently depends on them.

Oh please Miles, just like here, $$$$$ has its own ways of changing things and like you said, money goes much further over there.

Oh, you mean like minimum wage, safety issues, working conditions, maximum hours worked, day's off per week .....

And where do these savings in labor costs come from Miles??? Perhaps in over worked and under paid employees.

Housing prices directly reflect the level of income, food prices do not.

LOL, that depends on what it is that you are looking for and the prices of food do not change much from area to area as there is not a huge markup to begin with. The fact that food prices are so high is one of the reasons that many are so poor as most of their income goes into attempting to feed their family.

Yea, they are more concerned with making enough money to even eat, never mind buying the nice home.

I think that you had better open your eyes and really take a look around.

The more you say, the less you seem to know about it yourself. Who said anything about American companies doing anything. If the Mexicans are as well off as you say, then what is stopping them from importing this stuff and setting up stores. According to Mac, HD has set up a few stores so what is stopping them from setting up more? Free trade is just that.

It stands for trade Miles, and that trade and money it creates opens many doors.

Fine, the reason that I asked is that I see the same damn ting here in the US.

Very much a reality here as well so what exactly is the difference???

They pay it because that is what it costs and they have no choice. Food staples do not have a huge mark-up. Many of the illegals come here because they simply can't afford to stay there so once again, thanks for backing up my point.

They forgo it Miles because they can't afford it and food which is why housing is so much cheaper there.

Their priorities are not all that much different. They buy those trucks because if required, they can live in them and if they have to leave to go somewhere else to survive, they can use them to get there and hopefully, use them to make a living.

I see the same things happening here Miles. Perhaps you should pull your head out of your butt and look around here as well.

I don't claim to know everything but some things are obvious. BTW, it takes two to argue and I didn't start this one. Funny that you didn't see that. I wonder why?

Sometimes I just tire of hearing his bullshit and want to see if he can back it up.

What??? You can't hire an illegal under 1099 private contractor status. Good grief TBone!!

Sorry TBone. Very few people on welfare or minimum wage are there because of some disability that prevents them from higher skills and abilities.

Yep, but you are saying the adult should be paid more than the kid doing the same job....simply because the adult NEEDS more money to live. Salaries should not be based on need. They should be based on ability and value of work done, not age.

Please explain to me why those older adults should be paid more than the young adults or teens doing the exact same job? Wage based on a persons needs rather than abilities? Hmm...there are some countries that do run under that mentality. Go move there and tell me how you like it.

Hmm, you're the one thats telling me people who work for so little should be paid more...wait, only if they are old enough and need more as a result!!

I have no problem with salaries for American workers shooting up as a result of illegals being removed. No problem at all. Apparently you do.

Yep, liberals have created a system that keeps people oppressed and on welfare. They have no desire to work if they can just get handouts and be dependent on Gov. to take care of them. You seem to blame employers rather than the social programs that do nothing towards getting people off welfare.

Doesn't need to be upper management. Lower and min supervisor positions of which there are many. Skilled sales clerks that know the products well such as in sporting goods, hardware etc. Head cashiers who are fast are a valuable asset to any such merchant and are generally paid well for their work. Door greeters should not earn a living wage. Thats not what that job is for.

They don't but the liberal politicians make it possible for them to circumvent the system and easily get most any handouts the Gov. has to offer. Don't tell me about some law that says they can't. Illegals can and do get food stamps, healthcare, education etc.

Day laborers yes, not the full time workers at local businesses. That market has dried up and many have fled the state.

Many of these companies will continue to hire them.

WRONG! They must sign up and use the Gov's. Immigration EFile system. Why do you continue to argue about a point you know nothing about?

Yep, such as if they had illegals and did not verify their identity and SS status on the Gov's database.

He doesn't want them to leave. He wants to give them legal status and put them in front of those waiting in line legally.

Oh bull. Importing cheap labor is economically unsound. It helps only in the short term.

Yes I voted for 'her' and yes she is far left. Her desire to continually raise taxes is typical liberal at its worst. Luckily theres enough moderate and conservatives to shut her down on such issues. I voted for her because she does want to stop the flow of illegals and is the one who signed the latest rounds of laws to do so. I also voted for her because although shes against the Iraq war, she has done considerably to help our troops rather than work against them. She traveled to Iraq and met local families of fallen soldiers as well as active enlisties. I have a lot of respect for her even though I do not agree with all of her views. Her republican predecessors (3 of them) were worthless scum.

The Dems have controlled congress since Jan. You have done little to ease up on your bashing of Reps and start to bash Dems in congress. You will give me your spun reason for doing so.

Company is doing just fine all with legal American workers. No problem competing with others who do not.

Um, I asked a question TBone. 20% of their prisons are filled with illegal immigrants. Californias population is NOT anywheres close to

They have nice homes albiet smaller than in the USA. They have cars but usually a few years old rather than new. They are NOT dirt poor, not even close.

Big business is why the Democrats want even more open borders than the Reps? Our economy does not depend on them. That is a liberal myth without basis. They tried the illegal walkout last year. Millions of such workers did not show up to their jobs. Guess what, most places stayed open anyways. Some put up wanted signs for legal workers. Guess what, they hired legal workers. It did not have any impact despite the threats of the illegals that we'd see just how important they were. They are only in the short term. Long term they pose nothing for our economy.

Americans can't legally hold jobs in Mexico. There is no 'green card' for Americans. They simply can't except in a few extreme cases or those that reside in Mexico legally full time for over 5 years. Then there are some types of jobs that open up to Americans. It's very difficult for an American to get a job in Mexico. The USA should adopt the same policies.

Some of those laws are good and I agree with them. But you set no limits. More pay, more benifits more more more without limit. Tell me TBone, at what point do your beloved unions become greedy?

Then why do they go buy a brand new expensive 4x4 truck to park outside a makeshift house? Their culture has different priorities of what they do with their money than here in the USA.

Free trade is just that. Importing and exporting products. That has nothing to do with opening up a business in Mexico. An American can't easily open a business in Mexico. Generally American based companies in Mexico are done so through a Mexican owned and operated franchise.

TRADE. It has nothing to do with ability of an American company to open up a store in Mexico. They can't. They can sell a franchise license to a Mexican national and that Mexican can open up a store. NAFTA did not do a thing to alter that policy. It is for trade, not business operation.

NO TBone. Housing is cheap in Mexico and cars are more expensive than here. Yet they will gladly buy a brand new top end 4x4 truck before they will buy or even rent a decent place to live. They could easily get a nice house and forgo the expensive truck and get a used vehicle but they do not. Your theory is WRONG. It's a culture difference on priorities and not a financial decision.

Oh please. They have a truck that seats 4 and have 9 kids. Different culture, different priorities than here in the USA TBone. Go there and see for yourself instead of making a fool of yourself arguing about something you have never even witnessed yourself.

But if the economy over there is so great and the culture of the people is so against luxury as you claim, why would they come here? According to you and Mac, high quality health care is free over there, and if the economy is booming as you say, they could do much better where they are.

I really doubt that.

False ID's are easy to come by and not always so easy to discover.

If you think that system is fool proof, then you are the fool. Then another problem is how are they going to know illegals are working there to begin with.

Because doing that will not put us into a recession that just booting them all out probably will do.

Which is exactly why our economy is in the piss poor shape that it is in now and booting them all out will in the short term, make it worse.

I noticed that you deleted the question about Presidents. I guess that answers that.

There is no spin about it. The reps were in control for over 12 years and had a rep President for 6 of them and during that time accomplished very little, especially with the rep President. The Dems have only had control for a little over a year and have to deal with an idiot for a President and do not have enough of a majority to over ride a veto. When the dems actually pass legislation and it screws up something then I wlll blame them for those problems. What they need to do is act more like the reps and blame the President for shutting down the government and if he continues to be an ass, do just that.

With the low wages that you believe people should make I can believe that but it is hard to keep good workers when you pay them shit and that probably causes your family some problems.

I have no idea what the actual percentage is and neither does anyone else. Poor and desperate people tend to commit the most crimes and stereo-typing tends to cause more convictions so I'll ask again, what is your point?

Really???? That's not what Mac said and come to think of it, neither did you. Ramshackle shacks that don't even have doors but might have AC doesn't seem like nice by my definition.

LOL, sorry Miles, but once again, you're wrong.

Most is not all Miles and the purpose was not to shut them down but to prove their worth..

Some did and some didn't. I bet that if you go back to most of these companies, the same number or possibly more illegals are working there now. Many of the legals that took those jobs were also Mexican and most soon left them because of the hard work and low pay for it. If that were not the case, the illegals would have all went back to Mexico since they had no work and your governor would not have had to create the laws and systems that she did.

LOL, sorry Miles, but you have no way of backing up this bullshit claim. Many businesses would never admit that it did and if you were correct, they wouldn't have hired them back.

Open your eyes Miles and take a look around. You almost have to speak spanish to order most fast food or to talk to the workers building houses.

That is probably because most jobs in Mexico pay to little for American's to want them and as for the big companies, there are always ways around that. They can simply be paid by their American companies as American workers that are just visiting and since they don't own the properties that they are living in...

And at what point do your beloved corporate execs making millions per year become greedy?

Do they all do that???? I don't think so. Perhaps they do that because they don't know where they will be 6 months down the road and put their money where they can take it with them.

But if they had so much money as you claim, they should have both. You don't claim yourself to be rich and yet, you have both. I see that same attitude here in the US and almost always, it is the ones without a lot of money that tend to do that.

Sigh. You don't comprehend what part of the Mexican society is coming to the USA. It is NOT a mix of the general population. Not even close.

You can doubt anything you want but the facts show otherwise. Businesses have been signing up with the E-Verify system. Look it up if you still doubt it.

False ID's are NOT going to be in the E-Verify system. You need to read up on the system and what it does before arguing about something you know ZILCH about.

Every system has its faults. But the new threat of a business being shut down greatly increases the cost for a business to continue to hire illegals. You can rant all you want. Illegals in AZ are leaving the state. It's a law other states should follow and enforce.

Booting them will do no such thing. Dang political fear tactics you seem to whine about constantly yet you buy into them.

Which Dem president should I have voted for? I did not vote for Clinton and will not vote for Hillary if shes nominated. Who else should have gotten my vote? Carter? Or which candidates? Kerry? Gore? Both are worse even worse than Bush. I told you awhile ago I'd vote Dem if they put someone up thats worth a damn. Look at this years selection. Clinton or Obama? I don't care for McCain at all either so neither party has a candidate worth my vote.

And tell me all about the great things Pelosi and company spewed about that she and her fellow Dems even tried to accomplish in the past year? Sorry TBone, they threw their campaign rhetoric in the trash once elected. Go ahead, tell me all about the wonderful changes they have put forward, passed or failed.

You will never do any such thing. You defend Dems for anything they do as long as it's against what Reps want.

You know what my company or my family pays for wages? Try well above the market average as well as higher benifits, vacation time etc. Doing so keeps the better employees here rather than having them go to the competition. But go ahead and rant and whine about what you do not know. You're good at it.

Thats not what the average Mexican lives in and I nor Mac said otherwise. I used that example to make a point about differing priorities in Mexico. In the USA people tend to get a house or apartment before a new car. Not so in Mexico and it's not because of your lack of knowledge excuse about what they can afford.

And the walkout did NOT prove their worth at all. It caused little to no stoppage noticeable to the public. Didn't even put a dimple in anyones life. It proved that people like you who buy into the myth were wrong. But go ahead and dispute what took place.

Well if so then they speak English more fluently for some reason.

The intent was to show the general public how important they were to society. They claimed it would cause a great inconvenience to the public with a stoppage of the flow of goods and services for a day. It didn't do didly. NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH. It simply did not have the huge effect the organizers said it would.

Most of those workers are legal. But you'll probably dispute that.

Huh? If the wages were so low Americans wouldn't want them then there would be no law against hiring them. Besides the law is against ALL foreigners and not just Americans.

You failed to answer the question. There is greed on both sides but you NEVER mention at what point are workers or unions greedy. You want more, more and then want even more without any limits.

And you know this how? Oh, that's right, you don't. Your own facts work against you here Miles. If all that were coming across were the scum, your Governors changes would have no effect as none of them would want to work anyway. Your claim that her changes are having a dramatic effect shows just the opposit.

I'm sure that they have as they probably have no choice but that doesn't mean that they will report everything and I doubt that they have to report

Sorry Miles, but I have been in this field for a long time and these systems are usually worthless unless $$$$$ is put into them and they are strictly maintained. The problem here is that the data going in is usually complete crap due to excessive cost cutting and poor worker moral and as they say, GIGO.

Actually, at best the good workers are leaving but the scum will remain as this doesn't affect them. As for shutting down a business, I doubt that any large business will have to worry about that.

Sorry Miles, but the right like yourself is the master of fear tactics. Booting them out will cause exactly what I said. The market runs much more on fear than facts and the fear that profits of many companies will fall due to increases in costs will do just that.

Clinton, at least for the second term. Hell, even Kerry and Edwards with the shit job your man did in his first term qnd continues to do now.

Of course not, your hatred and fear of the Clinton name would never allow you to do that.

Yet another statement that you have no possible way to back up.

IOW, Thompson claiming to be a Democrat, LOL!

Of course not Miles, none of them are extreme right. I actually don't have much of a problem with any of them.

Campaign rhetoric is just that and is ment to be ignored. I find it funny that people like you complain that they didn't accomplish major changes in a year when they only have a slim majority and a president on the other side who could give a rats ass about anything but what he wants and at the same time, make no complaints about the the ones who had both the majority and a president on their party for YEARS and still accomplished NOTHING OF VALUE.

Once again, you let your extreme right bias cloud your senses.

LOL, this goes against everything that you normally say. Why would they pay you so little and everyone else way above market value. Were you really that bad? If your family builds high end houses then this might be true but even many high end builders still hire illegals for grunt and unskilled labor and if you don't do the same, then you will have to give up money to compete with them and with money being your God, I can see why you hate them so much.

Actually, Mac did and so did you.

Why would they choose to be homeless? Sorry Miles, but you are full of it.

LOL, not really. It caused a lot of hardship to those business owners and one day is not going to kill anything. Had they done it for a week or a month, then the real hardship would have been felt.

And you can back this how??? Oh, that's right, you can't.

I don't have to dispute it Miles, it was what it was. The fact that the politicians on both sides don't want to kick them all out shows what really happened behind the scenes.

After many yearas, I'm sure that they do.

And they did, at least to the gubberment and business owners.

Yes it did, but behind the scenes. The legals had to pull double and triple duty to make up for it. Most can do that for a day or two and the pressure was felt where it needed to be.

I'm sure that many of them are, at least in the fast food arena but I'm not so sure in the construction fields.

Of course there would Miles. Americans have much more $$$$ and could basically take over if these laws didn't exist and I know they apply to all foreigners but we are talking about the US.

Why should I make that determination Miles, you refuse to do so and actually said there should be NO limit. If that is the case for one, then it should be the case for both.

What exactly are you replying to. Both statemements above are yours, LOL!

I am not arguing with you on that point as I see the same thing here in the US. What counts is the reason for it and you have yet to answer that one and cultural differences is not the answer as there are reasons for that as well.

You can hide behind the cultural BS all that you want. These cultural differences happen for a reason Miles.

LOL, do you mean like feeding their children. How do you feed a family of

Seeing something and understanding the reason for it are two very different things Miles.

Yes Miles, bought, paid for, and ran by the American company. The point Miles, is that because of this free trade, American goods can easily be shipped down to Mexico to be sold by Mexican owned companies and if the mass population could afford them, that's exactly what would happen.

Thank you for once again making my point for me. If the people there have so much money, then that would already be happening and your sister in law would not be going to the states to get this merchandise to sell to the gringo's at the market. The reason that she does is that there simply isn't a market for it of any large scale.

LOL, NAFTA made it easy and inexpensive to move American goods to Mexico, regardless of who actually sells it. The reason that is isn't happening is that the people there simply can't afford it.

Whoopy frigg'n doo!! The new laws in AZ and the E-Verify system is totally different than anything you have ever used. Why do you keep on arguing about a country, laws and policies you know zilch about?

Oh ya? Ok TBone, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. Please tell me exactly how much has been spent by AZ and the US Gov. on the E-Verify system and what expenses were cut.

lol, why? He had nothing to do with the economy, both the rise nor the fall during his last year. His foreign policies with N. Korea and China were horrible. He was a sell out.

Kerry and Edwards would have been the most far left liberals ever in office. You already told me that too far left is a bad thing. Back up your words TBone and bash the far left as well since you say you're not far left biased.

No, Hillary isn't qualified to run for anything. Please list her major accomplishments in the past 7 years in the Senate. Please list the great things she's done for the country and for NY.

So tell me who you will vote for? Hillary? Obama? You think either is moderate? lol.

What on earth are you talking about? Now you know how much I make? Geez, you'll argue anything.

um, no TBone. Nobody said the average Mexican lives in a ramshackle of a home.

They're not homeless. They often would rather have a nice shiny car than a nice shiny home. Different cultural priorities that I realize do not make sense to you because you can't comprehend something vastly different than here in the USA. But you'll certainly argue about it anyways.

It did no such thing. That day of illegal walkout had no effect on any part of society. It was a day that went unnoticiable. Totally opposite of what the planners said would happen. IT HAD ZILCH of an effect! Disagree? Please by all means tell me what businesses had a hardship. Restaurants, farms, construction etc. pretty much ran as normal.

Right. There should be no limit to how much a company can pay someone. You want to punish people as they earn more with zero limits to how much to punish them.

Oh ya? Read up on Carlos Slim. He is one of the major American franchise owners. The American companies don't get the lions share of profit. He does.

Because quite frankly Miles, you seem to know even less than you accuse me of knowing.

I don't know and really don't care. The right's absolute need for cost cutting at any cost and the general crap moral make this a given. And no matter how good the database may start out being, it requires time and money to keep it that way and enough people to make sure that these companies are sending all of the information. Please show your proof that all of these things are happening and will continue to do so.

I find it funny how the left seems to have no effect on the economy but the right gets accredited for all of the positives. Sorry to burst your bubble Miles, but Clinton had a lot to do with the positive nature of the economy. Much of our economy is based on emotion as evident by the stock market every day and Clinton made people believe all was right with the world and people both spent and made money. It is a very different world now and changed after the first Presidential debate when Gore screwed the pooch and the world realised that regardless of the winner, it would not be 8 more years of the same. You can call him a sellout but that again, shows your complete ignorance. What exactly did you expect him to do? If you think that our loses over this idiotic war with Iraq are bad, imagine how they would be attempting to fight N. Korea or China. Our losses would be in the 10's of thousands with a real possibility of loss, the draft would be back and much like this war, would accomplish nothing for the huge cost.

If they were running against a new or intelligent Republican then I would agree but that was not the case. They were running against someone who more than proved himself to be horrible and depended on fear tactics and right wing loyalty to get re-elected. Also at that time, the congress was still under control of the right so no matter how left that they were, they still would be regulated as to what they could do.

Please list any of Bush's accomplishments.

Actually, Obama is a little more moderate than Clinton and they both have their good and bad points. The same can be said for McCain and I noticed that you didn't include him. Why is that?

I am going by what you said. You made the claim that your family pays skilled workers way above the market average and then claimed that you worked for around $2.00 and hour and were proud to do it. Now unless you are saying that $2.00 an hour is way above market wage way back then, then either you were not very good or are just full of shit.

Actually, the link that you provided says different. With 40% living below the poverty line and according to you, the ones with money tend to spend it on nice vehicles, Yes Miles, YOU said that the average Mexican lives in a ramshackle of a home.

I don't argue about it Miles, I just like watching you make a fool out of yourself talking about what you obviously don't understand. You keep making claims about these "cultural priorities" but don't seem to have a friggen clue as to what caused them.

And you know this, how???? Oh, that's right you don't. Actually, if you are the business owner that you claim to be, you know that it very much did but no business owner would or could ever admit to that.

Once again, you make claims that you can never back up. One day is not going to have much of an effect on society as there were still people there to do those jobs but it caused the owners and other workers of these business to have to work double time to get the job done. The simple fact is Miles, if they were not needed, they would not have been hired in the first place.

How do you know Miles? Does your family own and run all of the restaurants, farms, and construction companies in the US as well?

What in the hell are you talking about?

LOL, you really don't have a clue. What those Mexican franchises make is a drop in the bucket compared to what these American companies save in production costs which turns into pure profits here in the US and anywhere else they sell the finished products. And by what you said, I see that the free enterprise system is alive and well in Mexico as well. Carlos Slim keeps the money and his workers get the shaft.