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Sorry Miles, but the one spouting myths and bullshit here is you. I looked this up on the gov sites. Why don't you give it a try sometime. They make an initial assessment of the total work force and the number of unemployed from the national census and then the workforce number is maintained based on birth rate, age of the work force, people that will actively look for employment, retirement age, and many of these are based on assumptions that are no longer valid. As for the unemployment figure, that is primarily figured on the number of people applying for unemployment insurance with the now invalid assumption that most of them will find another job before or shortly after their insurance runs out and those that don't simply are no longer looking for work and are removed from the work force number. Another assumption is that most will be able to find a job and keep it long enough to be eligible for unemployment insurance and that is also far less valid than it used to be. You talk about labor force surveys which are complete crap. Who exactly do they go to and when?
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TBone wrote:

WRONG! It is primarily computed from labor force surveys. That replaced the unemployment insurance stats long ago for the very reasons you have stated. Lets see those Gov. sites you claim that state most info is from unemployment insurance stats.
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Lets see these labor force surveys that you are talking about. I asked you who got them and when and as typical for you, you didn't answer anything. I'm done wasting my time here.
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TBone wrote:

LOL! You're the one who made the claim about Gov. sites saying unemployment stats are from insurance claims. Those sites musta closed down or something! You bought the typical liberal rhetoric and just repeat it. Even liberal politicians aren't making your claim!! Too funny.
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Roy wrote:

Says who? The media? Depends on the market sector but overall it certainly has not crashed.
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I wish that we all lived in the fantasy land that you do.
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TBone wrote:

The fantasy land is the one you live in. The one created by the media and politicians for the weak uneducated. If you're looking for work my company is hiring and having difficulty. Not enough skilled workers looking for work now. But then, that would leave you out as well! (G).
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LOL, I think that the real problem that you are having is the salary that you are willing to pay for the work that you want done. That and the fact that your company is in the friggen desert and not everyone wants to live there.
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TBone wrote:

You know that how? Besides, salaries aren't mentioned until someone applies and is interviewed etc. Benefit packages are negotiable.

Hate to tell ya but Phoenix has been one of the fastest growing areas in the country.
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By talking to you here and reading what you believe. You seem to think that someone starting should have to work up to a living wage, not start at one and work up to a comfortable living.

And that's probably another problem because when I was looking for work, it seemed that the ones not putting a salary range in job posting usually were on the low side. Not all of the time, but most of it.

IOW, get them in for the lowest cost possible. The fact is Miles that there are many people out there but they want or need more than people like you are willing to pay them. What is your general salary range for the positions you are looking to fill Miles?

It was. Not so much now and fast growth is a major negative where you live. Either way, Phoenix is a somewhat expensive area to live in and that climate pulls in a very specific type of person and maybe not the type of people that you need or ones willing to work there for the salary you are offering. I'll tell you what Miles, if you are uncomfortable listing salary ranges here, tell me what kind of lifestyle could a married employee with 2 kids living in the Phoenix area talking one of these jobs that you are offering have on the low end of the benefits package you are offering. What about the high end?
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TBone wrote:

You seem to think a company should pay a high salary to someone who has no skills and ignore the high costs a company endures to train them. Yes TBone, work your way up and quit expecting handouts and something for nothing. Hard work earns rewards in life. It's not given out freely as you want.

Low end jobs post salaries. High end jobs post no such thing or at most a possible wide range. Guess I know what jobs you were looking for!

lol, nah, pay them as much as possible, way over what they are worth. Some peoples kids!

They want and need huh? There is an economic system where people are paid based on need. Why don't you move there? I prefer one where pay is based on abilities and not wants and needs. You want it? Then learn and work for it.

75K-100K+ for mechanical engineers depending on specific job and skills an applicant holds.

lol, you have no clue about Phoenix!! The southwest has been steadily out pacing growth compared to almost all areas of the USA. Major corporations have all moved here, Banner, Target, Raytheon, Wells Fargo, Motorola and many more.

They could live quite nice considering the median income in Phoenix is $45,000 and most at my company make over that. Keep it up TBone with your assumptions that my company must pay sub par wages. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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Why is it that you seen to think that a living wage is a high salary? There is a big difference between the two.

Once again, nuthin but distortions and bullshit. Who said anything should be handed out? What exactly is you definition of rewards?

Then you would be once again, wrong as usual. I did not say that an exact salary would or even should be posted but in many cases, a range is listed.

Once again, a idiotic right wing responce, how typical. You should always get the best deal and anyone but an idiot knows that the best deal does not always mean the lowest price. I guess that we know where you stand.

And that is why your company is having the hard time that it is attracting talent. I agree on the wants side to a point but needs are what they are and if you refuse to meet them, then they cannot come to you for work.

And how much experience do they require to get hired within this salary range? Would a college grad with lets say a masters and little work experience qualify? How about a BA?

LOL, which is probably why you are having a difficult time finding employees as these companies know what real talent is worth. That still doesn't change the fact that the climate there is not for everyone. The last time I was there (and it has been a few years) going down some of the streets made me laugh. They had grass lawns and fruit trees, it looked like a mini Florida except for the smog that Florida doesn't have. And even then there were water issues and I'm sure that it isn't any better now and probably worse unless some serious restrictions have been put in place which would make it less desirable for many and perhaps more desirable for some.

LOL, you are kidding, right!?!?!?! I doubt very much that you could live "quite nice" on $45,000 there. It is so right wing of you to come up with a deceptive number like the median income when that number is an unweighted combination of the richest of the rich and the poorest of the poor. If the true cost of living well was $45,000 then you should have employees beating down your door to get the jobs you mentioned here as you are offering up to more than twice that amount. Something tells me that to live a good lifestyle in the better areas of Phoenix costs well upwards of $100,000 in family income.
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TBone wrote:

TBone, you fail to realize that pay is and should be based on abilities and not based on need. Now, if you disagree with that then there are countries that believe in pay based on need. Are they the better place to be? They have happier workers?

Basing ones salaries on needs rather than abilities is handouts.

How so? Our wages are considerbly higher than the average along with above average benifits packages. We pay for high skills and pay well to keep such. If we didn't, they would go to our competitors. However, contrary to your belief, our competitors are having a hard time finding skilled workers as well.

A college degree isn't required nor a masters or BA. Experience is. These jobs are not entry level.
< That still doesn't

Neither is the midwest, east, southeast etc. Everyone has different tastes. However, the fact still remains that the southwest continues to be the fastest growing. Phoenix housing grew last month, not declined like most of the country has.

Florida has incredible humidity, hurricanes and flat as a pancake. Sure it appeals to many. It's a very crowded over populated state. Since you referred to an entire state (Florida) and not a particular city then you must be aware that Arizona is far from all hot desert. Much is thickly wooded and quite snowy and cold. I'll take the wide open spaces of Arizona and the southwest any day over the crowded, polluted east coast cities.

There were a few years where water levels in lakes were rather low. We had several years of little rain and snowfall in the state. Levels are back to normal now. During the low times there were no restrictions in place. Contrary to your beliefs, there are far worse states with regards to water. California, several of the southeast states etc. for instance.

Thats not what I said but I know how you love to twist things! To correct you, I stated the median income here was 45k and most at my company are well above that.
You trying to say that entry level jobs should earn more than 45K they need and want more?

Do you understand the difference between median and average? Um, it would appear you do not!
If the

Phoenix is not among the more expensive cities to live in.
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That is why there is a/c.

Not bad last year.

So you get super mpg.
>Sure

It is crowded in places. Orlando sucks, You couldn't pay me to live there. Same for southern Fl. But I'm on the coast, in central Fl., in a city with a population of about 7,000.
Oh you left out the fire danger. They caught one guy setting the forest fires south of us.

A person has to be somewhere.<VBG>

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Roy wrote:

Same as here in AZ but we don't have the 80%+ humidity to go with the heat. I also prefer not to stay indoors so much. Plus the heat in Florida is almost state wide. In Phoenix I can go from 110F to 70F in an hour or two drive. I'll take the Phoenix heat any day over Florida or other high humidity areas.

lol, thats true but I gotta have variety! I love the mountains. Beach is 3 hours away. A bit far but not bad.

Can your drive 3 hours in FL and see nothing more than a few ranches and maybe a gas station but no towns, cities the entire way? Just wide open country?

Ya, Northern AZ had a 500,000 acre forest fire a few years back that was arson.
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wrote in message

Being so close to the coast there is almost always a nice breeze, so the heat isn't so bad. Then again, I'm not working in it.<G>

Kinda, if you head west towards the panhandle.

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And that's why you are having such a hard time filling positions. In order for someone to work at your company, the pay has to at least meet what they need to survive or they simply cannot work for you.

LOL, more spin. A salary needs at a minimum the amount to support the needs of the average person living in that area. Anything above that can be considered awards.

Then perhaps your competitors are not paying a valid salary either. You told me what the starting salary was and that you are looking for experienced people and you live in a city. Sorry Miles, but the salary that you mentioned is far from excessive and below average in states like NJ for the same skills. You can only set the bar so low and eventually, people are simply going to choose to do something else.

Then why are you offering slightly above entry level pay?

So did NC? What is your point?

There are many areas of Florida that are not heavily populated but what exactly does Florida have to do with the point at hand. I didn't say that Florida was a better place to live, only that many of the people that live in Phoenix are trying to make it into something else.

LOL, you should be the last one to talk about polution compared to Phoenix.

The point Miles is that you are still in the desert and the more houses they build there, the worse the water situation is going to get. We are dealing with the same thing here now and we are not in the desert.

So what????? What is the median income or better yet, the required income to live near your company? If I lived in Pheonix, what salary woud I need to support a family of 4?

If that is what it take to live in that area (and I'm not talking luxury), then yes or you will not be able to retain valuable employees.

Please explain it to me.

It is still a city and will be far more expensive to live in then a more rual area.
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TBone wrote:

And you feel that my company MUST pay far too little huh? It can't possibly be because too few skilled workers looking for a job? Sorry TBone, skilled workers are difficult to come by nationwide. That causes pay scales to go up, not down.

Oh sure, that must be it!

75K-100K+ is not below average for even NJ. We have a few from that area. They moved here because of low salaries compared with cost of living where they were. Ya, NJ is the place people are swarming to live huh? lol

Entry level is what a college grad with no experience would make. You telling me a college grad entry level job pays 100K+? Get real TBone, not even close.

Downtown Phoenix area has bad smog in the winter. The entire rest of the metro area sits on the opposite side of mountains and is rather clear.

What you fail to realize is that the desert cities of Arizona get NO water from the desert. Arizona is mountainous with heavy snowpacks, lakes and streams. The deserts below get their water from the mountain runoff through a very large system of lakes as well as from the Colorado River. Arizona has more water than it needs and sells the excess to California.

OMG! You really don't know the difference between median and average!! lol, they let anyone graduate high school!

Cost of living wise thats not true. In rural areas there are few jobs and those generally pay far less than in the city.
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Well, according to you, your area is simply the place to be. If that is true, then where are all of these engineers? Are you saying that they no longer exist??? Gee, what could possibly cause that?

For an experienced engineer, depending on the area of experience it is far from a high salary

Well, with it's high population density..... you figure it out.

I said that you were slightly above entry level and while that may be a bit of an exaguration,mit is hardly a stunning salary what would cause many to uproot and move down there.

Rather clear and clear are two different things.

I am fully aware of that. My point is that we have the ability to get water from this area as well as other areas such as our own mountians and we still have water supply issues during times of drought from over building.

The point is that as it grows, those reserves and their ability to sustain a drought are reduced. Then when you add on idiots that try and turn the desert into Florida or some tropical resort.....

Actually, I asked to see if you could explain it and as I thought, you couldn't.

LOL, they pay less because the cost of living is less.
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TBone wrote:

There is a shortage of skilled mechanical, structural and electronic engineers nationwide. It's not unique to Phoenix.

Depends on the job itself. But now you're spun from saying below average to saying not a high salary. Good grief!

Much of the east cost is densly populated but its growth rate is very low and many cities are falling. Meanwhile the west has been growing rapidly in most years. You figure it out.

Far clearer than NJ which is one polluted state! Course many areas export all their smog and crap elsewhere. Cities like San Francisco being on the coast do much the same thing. Having clear air doesn't mean they don't produce a ton of crap. NJ is one of the worst. I've been in Newark. It wasn't even 'rather clear'.

Arizona hasn't had such water problems even in Phoenix with it's over 3 million metro area population. So what are you talking about water issues in the desert for? Your area has far worse problems.

Thats true nationwide. However, Arizona has much more water than most. They've developed a much better water system that works and is currently being expanded. In states such as California they have water problems, mostly caused by political roadblocks that have prevented increased water storage etc.

ROFLMO!!! You honestly do not understand what MEDIAN means!!! You are the one that stated that median income figures were skewed by a few very high income people. That proves you are clueless as to what median means.

Partly but it doesn't usually balance out.
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