OT-Tolerance

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clare wrote:


You're crackin me up.
Craig C.
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Hmmmm..... they seem to have a lot of common, both use the same mail program as well.

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he wouldn't...........would he?

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snipped-for-privacy@whatever.net wrote:

Budd's wife's name isn't "Clare" is it?
If so, that ole fart just pulled off a doozie. :-)
Craig C.
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Doubtful but.....................

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And I haven't heard from Budd in a while, I wonder.....
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
"Roy" < snipped-for-privacy@home.net> wrote in message
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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message wrote:

Now if you didn't read Budds rants, then how exactly can you say this???? Is this Budd?!?!?!?!
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If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

There have been numerous God(s) throughout the worlds history. Many of those religions lasted far longer than the rather young Christianity. Did these God(s) of these long lost cultures exist? They vanished when these cultures vanished and new religions began. Each new culture brings with it a new religion claiming it is the only correct one. It's possible in another 1000 years some new religion, culture and God(s) will be created just as has happened in our history.
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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

Budd goes well beyond saying he disagrees with others beliefs. He has zero respect for anyone with differing views and thinks everyone is against him.
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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

My beliefs, for the most part, can be be proven; Christianity can't be proven and is strictly based on faith. If you want to live by the tenets of a religion I will gladly "tolerate" that practice but when you want to interject your beliefs into government I will object.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Like many believers you believe that values can only come from religion; again, you're wrong. There are concepts of right and wrong that are universal and transcend religion.
> The basic fundamental values ridiculed as "Christian values" are also

Never said otherwise. Some of your so called "Christian values" are universal.

The fact that several religions are based on the Old Testament adds no credibility to the beliefs. For most of civilized history people believed the Earth was flat; they were wrong, and it's quite possible that believers in the god of Abraham are also wrong and number among the members of the thousands of religions that have existed since the beginning of recorded history.

Your last statement makes a lot of assumptions. You falsely ASSume that all of those who deny God, Jesus Christ and christianity deny the existence of a higher power. Before you accuse me of playing word games by distinguishing between God and a higher power, be aware that they are not necessarily the same thing. For all any of us know, that higher power might be a non-entity.
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wrote:

Your beliefs can be proven? Prove that the inherent universal concepts of right and wrong are NOT instilled by the allmighty. Prove that the old testament is wrong. Prove that Christ was not the son of God, and that he did not die to absolve all who believe of the guilt of their sins.
I'd say you are taking AT LEAST as much on faith as the Christian is. The new testament is one of the most historically correct and provable peices of ancient literature known to man today. The more secular (non-religous) scholars and investigators dig into it, trying to find fault, the more they find can be historically proven or substantiated by the other known and accepted historical records.
Even the old testament, which was handed down for centuries only as an oral tradition, has been found to be extremely accurate in many instances.
If both the old and new testament were not the underpinnings of a/several religons they would still be valuable as historic records, works of ancient literature and philosophy. ( in other words, they are not "good fiction".

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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

You're asking for proof AGAINST your beliefs in an attempt to prove them right. My neighbors 4 year old has an invisible friend she 'plays' with. Since nobody can prove this invisible friend doesn't exist it therefore must per your logic?
Nobody is attempting to prove you wrong. They are your beliefs. It is when you attempt to impose your beliefs onto others that the tolerance stops. Keep your beliefs where they belong...with you.
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Not trying to impose any beliefs on anyone - just noting that ANY belief that cannot be proven has to be taken on faith. By definition, if it is a BELIEF it is NOT PROVEN, otherwise, it is a FACT.
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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message wrote:

You're absolutely correct and that illustrates the fallacy of you challenging others to disprove your faith. By your own word you admit that your beliefs cannot be proven.
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I am too lazy to reply to other postings separately, so I will do them all in this one post.

like, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others (whether that be myself, as a Christian, or anyone else). You don't need to prove anything to me."
I agree with you. As a Christian, I will tolerate the views of others, although I may not agree with them. For everyone else, please understand, if I am trying to convince you to believe what I believe, this does not necessarily mean that I am intolerant. If I was intolerant, I would say, "Believe what I believe or I'll kill you." But simply asking someone to consider what I believe is not intolerance (and vice versa for anyone asking me to consider different beliefs). Now I realize that Budd is very extreme in this matter (he has accused me of being an "uneducated liberal" in response to my attempt to defend him in an older post), but please realize that true Christians will be tolerant of others' beliefs, even if they do not agree with them.

life and then say you believe in God and accept Christ as your savior the last day of your lifeand be forgiven ans accepted into heaven?"
It may not make sense, but it is essentially what Jesus did on the cross when he forgave the thief who was repentant at the end of his life. I would add one thing to what you said, though, which is that you must truly be repentant for what you have done.

John, the essence of belief is faith. Anything that can be proven is a fact; anything else is a belief. Take the origin of the universe, for example. No matter what stance you take on the issue, it is a belief. I cannot prove that God created the universe any more than anyone can prove that a matterless void exploded and formed everything that exists today. Either way, it takes faith to believe what you think. What this is getting at, though: much of the Bible has been proven to be true; the rest (supernatural acts and so on) cannot be proven, which is where faith comes into play.
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9DodgeFan wrote:

Thats what its all about. If you want others to be tolerant of you then you must extend that same tolerance to others. Mutual respect for each others beliefs. Thats whats not happened here and why so many are ticked off.
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wrote:

My beliefs can be proven to be true for ME -by MY experience. That does not transfer to you. ANd I'm not asking ANYONE to disprove my beliefs. I'm just challenging those who BELIEVE my beliefs are wrong to prove theirs. They BELIEVE there is no God? Can they prove there is no God? No. So why should I need to prove there is. They BELIEVE the Bible is fiction. Can they prove it? No they can not. Can I prove it is truth? 100% beyond the shadow of any doubt? No. But the fact that in MANY ways it has been proven to be historically accurate (New testament, at any rate) means there is a better chance it IS true than that it is not.
They BELIEVE there are no eternal rammifications to living their own life, the way they see fit - with no "higher power". Can they prove they are right? Not in this life - but IF they are wrong, and there IS an eternity, they'll find out when "time runs out". At that point, perhaps, there will be incontrivertible proof one way or the other.
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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

As I stated earlier, the burden of proof lies with the individual making the claim not the doubter. If you want to believe in something with no physical being you are free to do so but when you want your beliefs to be the basis of government you must prove the existence of your God before expecting others to live by his/her "teachings". That is the gist of this thread and the one that spawned it, it's not about the existence or non-existence of God but it is about believers forcing their views on non-believers by interjecting religion into government.

Margaret Mitchell wrote the novel Gone With the Wind. It is based on a known historical period and some of the events are historically accurate. Does that mean there actually was a plantation called Tara? Does that prove that there was a real-life character called Rhett Butler or Scarett O'Hara? Using your logic, partial accuracy in the novel "means there is a better chance it IS true than that it is not".
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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

There are writings of other cultures and other Gods throughout the worlds history. The people and places in these writings have been shown to exist. Were the spiritual parts of these writings factual? If they were then the Bible is in conflict with them yet these cultures believed just as strongly as those of todays religions. Some of these ancient religions lasted far longer than the rather young Christianity of today. So what happened to these lost religions? Why were they all wrong and todays religion is the correct one?
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clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

Define proof. What is proof to many is completely ignored by those who's own beliefs are on conflict. For instance, theres enough evidence to make a strong case that the earth and the universe is far older than 8,000 years or so. Won't matter to the faithful. They will never believe any such evidence. It took many decades for religious groups to agree that the earth is round and revolves around the sun and neither is the center of the universe. Prior to their eventual acceptance of these facts anyone who differed in their views were told they were flat out wrong with zero possibility of being correct. In many cases they were persecuted for their 'wrong' beliefs. So what happened? Did religion change to match facts? How can religion change?
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