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TBone wrote:


Never said otherwise. I only stated that Mexico is NOT a country where most people are dirt poor and starving. Mexico exports its poverty to the USA as a way of solving the problem. Those that come here are mostly under and uneducated.
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Yes, you did. According to you, most Mexicans are doing quite well and simply choose to live the way that they do due to "cultural differences". If this were in fact true, they would not have the issues that they do and the number of them trying to get here would be much less.

Most no, but 40% is still damn high and if those figures were reported to that site by the Mexican Government, then I suspect that number to be much higher than that.

LOL, another statement that you cannot possibly hope to back up. This is your opinion Miles and nothing more.

I would say that the higher percentage are exactly that but why are there so many of them Miles? Are you saying that Mexicans are typically stupid or lazy? Is that part of the cultural differences that you keep talking about?
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TBone wrote:

Thats true. Most Mexicans are doing well per their needs and culture. They're mostly happy, have roof over their heads and food on the table. You seem to feel most are dirt poor and the countries run down and corrupt.

Most of that 40% are not dirt poor, starving etc. Most in the USA below the poverty level are not dirt poor, homeless, starving etc. What does poverty mean to you TBone? What does it mean to the Federal Gov. whom sets the $ amount to define it?

It's your opinion that those coming to the USA represent a cross section of Mexico rather than the poor, under educated etc.

11 million (well thats just a guess, could be higher, could be lower, who knows) came here over a 40 year period. Whats the population of Mexico?
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Once again Miles, you make statements that you can't possibly hope to back up. Even the links that you provide go against you.

How do you know? Did you interview the majority of the population?

I never said any such thing but they do have a much lower standard of living than we do and a large population at the poverty level and lower. You seem to be happy with the delusion that they want it this way but the numbers of them crossing the border say's something very different.

LOL, oh really! Care to back that up. Of course you don't because you can't.

Again, let's see you back that up. Sure, there are some scum that scam the system and many are not homeless or starving because of social programs but they are still dirt poor and are in many cases trapped by the very system that they now depend on not to be starving or homeless.

To me it means not having enough to meet even basic needs without being strapped down by some gubberment handouts and red tape. What does it mean to you Miles?

Probably the amount needed to just scrape by in the lowest cost area in the country.

I would say that it is much more likely to be closer to mine than yours but even if you are the one who is correct, why are there so many of them and if Mexico is such a booming place with free housing and health care, why would they rick it all to come here and why so many of them. You deleted the question the last time I posted it. How about answering it if you know so much about the country as you claim.

Once again, more meaningless numbers. Unless the flow has been the same every year for those 40 years, what exactly is your point?
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TBone wrote:

Never said otherwise. Of course Mexico has a lower standard of living. But that doesn't mean people aren't happy. They don't need the things we take for granted here in order to be happy. We're spoiled.

The US poverty level is $21,000 for a typical family. Certainly not much $'s but I know quite a number of families of 4 making about that and doing ok. They have an apartment, car and food. They're strapped and penny pinch on a daily basis but they do alright and are not dirt poor and starving and homeless nor are they on social handouts.

Who said booming? I never did. I simply stated that most in Mexico are not dirt poor, starving and homeless. Most do just fine for their needs.
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What people need and what they want are to very different things Miles. If people were just happy with what they need, there would be no rich people and greed would not exist. Just because they are used to living well below what we would consider poverty doesn't mean tha they want to stay that way. Are you happy now Miles? Are you still trying to grow your business to make more money? Why Miles?

That depends on their ambition and where they live miles. Sure, there are areas where you can survive on that level of income but they are trapped there. So much for freedom.

I don't think that they are overly happy about being 1 paycheck away from being on the street either. They may not have a bad attitiude and are trying to make the best out of the situation but I can bet that if an oppertunity would come up to double or even tripple their income, they would jump on it in a heartbeat. Just like the ones comming over here from Mexico.

Yes you did Miles. If most of the population is doing just fine for their needs, then the economy is booming. That is not the case there or even here right now. Your attitude is really why so many hate the rich as many of them have the same one. Just because people may smile sometimes when they are just getting by doesn't mean that they are happy with their situation or don't want anything more. Many of the people that you are talking about are not happy and are in fear of losing even the little bit that they do have and wonder if they can ever retire. This is NOT doing just fine and if the opportunity or even perceived opportunity to improve that situation appears, many are going to jump on it. It is not just the uneducated and lazy that are floodong our borders, it is the ambitious and the ones that want a better life and are willing to take the risk to achieve it as well and are probably the greater percentage now.
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TBone wrote:

I see. So they need liberals like yourself to keep telling them how miserable they are. Everyone strives for more. But they aren't miserable. They're generally happy. You seem to think everyone needs to live how we do in the USA or they can't possibly be happy. Sometimes I think they have the better life. Simpler, quieter and focus on the little things in life instead of cable TV and internet.

Sure the heck am. Enjoying life. Hope you are too.

You have a problem with growth? Oh ya, must be greed. No TBone, my salary has gone up an average of around 2-3% per year, often less than inflation. Companies growth has been 10-12% per year. But I'm sure you'll figure out a way that must be greed. Sigh.

As Janis says, Freedoms just another word for having nothing left to lose. I know many at around the poverty level that I envy. They are quite happy. Happier than many middle and upper class. You seem to live in a materialistic world and can't imagine how people could be happier enjoying the little things in life. They dont have nor necessarily want cell phones, cable tv, etc. You must think the Amish are miserable and need your liberal help.

Huh? Um, if you say so Tom!! Can anyone translate this rhetoric??
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How do you know this Miles? The fact is that you don't and I would say that many of them are not happy. Sure, many if not most can find some joy in their lives but that far from makes them truly happy. Safety and security are two main points that allow people truly happy and living paycheck to paycheck does neither.

LOL, I never said any such thing and not everyone is living in the US all that well either. However, basic needs are pretty much the same for everyone and despite your bullshit, that is not the case there or here for everyone and here is still better than there.

And what exactly is stopping you from doing just that Miles???

Yes I am and thank you for asking as this is exactly my point. You are happy now and I bet that you were happy before you had the nice house, the summer cabin, the new cars, the boat, and everything else that you now have and yet, you continue work to have more. You may claim that it is our culture but in reality, it is just human nature.

Not at all Miles but if you are already happy, what is the point? Seem like enough and even more than enough is still now enough for you. What makes you think that they are any different.

You are a bit paranoid Miles. My point is that even though your company is doing well, you continue to work to make it bigger. As I said Miles, this is human nature and the people of Mexico are also human and despite you complete bullshit, also strive to better themselves.

LOL, yea, sure. If that were the case Miles, what is stopping you from joining them?

I guess that you have now defined liberal as someone who cares, much unlike yourself and if that's the case, then yea, I'm a liberal and proud of it. But you are still the definition of the typical ignorant and greedy right that thinks the rest of the world is just stupid. There is a huge difference between having toys lile cell phones and cable and having enough money to put food on the table and a few dollars in the bank. You keep making the claim that the people that come here are un and under educated and the primary reason for that is that parents have to send those kids to work to put food on the table and the social program that you mentioned was put in place to combat that very thing. Sorry Miles, but the more you say, the more you prove what you don't know.

Perhaps they can after they sort threw the bs and spin in the crap you typed above.
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TBone wrote:

How do you know the Tom? Fact is you don't. You guess as you always do.

Yes, they need liberals to tell them they are miserable and what they need to be happy. Typical liberal absurdity at its worst.

Now just why would I do that Tom? I do so to be able to give more to others. Something a 'compassionate' liberal can't comprehend. I've spent almost 30% of my own money out of pocket directly helping others. That doesn't include donations to charity groups. How are you doing? Oh ya, I must be greedy too as you say so often.
As I said Miles, this

I strive to give to others. Always have, always will. Try it Tom. It's very rewarding.

No Tom that would be you who thinks others are stupid. You think they need you to tell them they're not really happy.
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Sorry Miles, but what I said is far more sensible than what you have. I do have friends in this situation and while they do see many of the joys in life, they also face the very real fear of losing everything sonce they have little to fall back on and the worries of how to get their kids into a good college. Sorry Miles, but most in this situation face these same challenges and fears and that is not true happiness.

They need that about as much as you telling them that they are. Sorry Miles, but it works both ways and if they are so happy and you are so envious of their lifestyles as you claim, what is stopping you form joining them.

LOL, please Miles, just about everything else that you say in here says something very different.

Let me ask you something Miles, do you claim any of that money as tax deductions?

It's not what I say Miles, but what you say. You keep saying that anyone working in unskilled labor shouldn't even make enough money to live. You also plan on continuing to pay yourself your full salary until either your company goes under or you die. Yea, that's real giving. Sure, you have all of the right wing justifications for doing it but it still equates to selfishness, any way you try and spin it.

Again Miles, what you are saying here differs greatly from everything else that you say.

And you seem to think that they need you to tell them that they are.
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TBone wrote:

Thats the USA, not Mexico. The USA isn't Mexico. You have friends, I work with these people weekly. Wonder why so few liberals just say rather than do but thats a different issue!

I don't tell them a thing. They tell me. It's you trying to tell them they're really miserable in typical liberal fashion and how your absurd liberalism can 'save' them from such misery. You're sounding like a liberal politician.
Sorry

My folks did and in time I may do the same. They went from a 4000sf home on 2 acres to a 1200sf home on 1/8 acre. They went from a new airplane and 2 Cadillacs to a 1998 CTD and a 2002 Explorer. They could have more if they wanted but they don't want it and don't need liberals like you telling them that they do.

Oh ya? Tell me Tom, how many hours a week to you spend directly helping and working with others outside your own family (not just donations, but time). Compassionate liberalism involves getting others to pay and give and never themselves.

Ya, its always all about deductions huh? So I give 30% out of my own pocket. Tell me Tom, how much money does that generate for me? Sorry Tom, it doesn't generate me money, it costs me money. But go ahead and not give to others so you can't be accused of a tax write off. Good grief, what a sorry reason not to give! In reality Tom, to answer your question, NO. I can't deduct 30%. Most of it is NOT to charitable organizations. It's directly to people I work with and help. Dang 'compassionate' liberals.

Never said that. I said minimum wage shouldn't be set as such nor should a Walmart door greeter be paid as such etc. Your view is that people should be paid based on need and not abilities. Theres a social and economic system with that mentality..know what it is Tom?

You have never been able to explain why investing in my own company and retiring on its returns is bad. You have told me I should invest in other companies (stocks etc.). Why other companies and not my own?

Bull. I have always said I give considerably as many conservatives do. Liberals are all talk....talk with other peoples money and not their own.

Again, they tell me and I leave it at that. I do not tell them anything. But you sure seem to!
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Miles, I work with them as well and many become my friends. And while this is the USA and not Mexico, people have the same fears everywhere. Sure, they may be more worried in Mexico about putting food on the table each night then sending their kids to an ivy league school but how can anyone truly be happy with fears like going hungry or becoming homeless hanging over their heads every night. Argue all you want Miles, I am the one with reality on my side and the masses comming over the border as well as the links that YOU provided back me up.

LOL, there is a big difference between worried and miserable Miles, despite your right wing spin and again, the people that you are dealing with are here in the USA where the standard of living is much higher, even for our poor. In Mexico, true poverty very much can mean misery, starvation, and even death. I know that you keep denying it because you only see what you want to see.

Once again spinmaster, what you just said has nothing to do with what I asked. While your parents may have stepped down their lifestyles a bit, I'm sure that they still have a lot of money in the bank which puts them in a completely different class from those that can't afford to do any better and have no savings at all. Now if you think that their lifestyles are so great, why don't you give away your business and get a job paying what they make and live that lifestyle?

It differs from week to week but on average, around 5 to 15 hours a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. As I said before, I have a second business doing home improvements and repairs and many times I help those that don't have much money by making those repairs for them at not much over cost when I know they need the help. The difference here Miles, is that while you pay yourself your full salary whether you work or not, being an independant contractor every hour I spend doing this costs me money so don't give me that bullshit about liberalism.

I'm sure that you are not doing it for nothing Miles and I'm not trying to attack you, I'm going by what you say and how you react to situations. In many ways you make it sound like the only reason to do anything is to benefit yourself so what exactly is the benefit here. I would say that it is either the tax rightoff or it makes you look better and not like a scumbag that lives well at the expence of your workers. Now I don't know if this is the reason or not but from what you say.....

LOL, how did you come up with this load of crap. I am simply trying to discover your motivation for doing this because by what you say, true concern for others takes a distant second place to profit.

Perhaps if you paid them a resonable salary to begin with, you wouldn't have to help them on the side but then again, you can screw them over this way and look good and caring while doing it. How right of you.

Then what exactly is the purpose of the minimum wage Miles? Not every minimum wage job is a wallmart door greeter and some of these minimum wage jobs are not so unskilled and actually hard to do.

Once again Miles, your right wing short sightedness is sad to see.

Because only an idiot puts all of their eggs in one basket miles and how exactly are you investing? Oh, that's right, you are just taking. How many others have the oppertunity to invest in your company this way? If you are as giving as you claim, then you should sell the company when you are ready to retire and give someone else the opportunity to succeed and live well off of the profit from the sale.

LOL! Sure Miles, anything you say. The funny thing is that if people like you paid people a living wage, then there would be little need to have to give anything but then they probably wouldn't be able to live the extravagant lifestyles that people like you feel your entitled too and more importantly, they wouldn't have the power that they do over those they keep way beneath them.

I would suspect that in your select group that some do but then again, you do see and hear only what you want to anyway so no matter what they say, this is what you are going to hear. Any way that you try and spin it, the real world situation says very different than you claim, despite your spin.
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TBone wrote:

TBone, it's really simple. If they say they are happy then I leave it at that. Only a liberal would feel the need to tell them they are wrong and don't know any better.

If they say they are happy then who are you to tell them they're wrong? Trouble with you TBone is you seem to know what you do NOT see. Nobody needs you or any other liberal to tell them how they feel and what they need.

Right Tom! Tell me how you plan to retire? You invest I hope and will retire off the revenues from those investments. Unless you feel as you've told me so much that such is totally wrong. So I guess we just live on a negative return investment called social security huh? You have no good reason why it is wrong to invest in ones own company but perfectly fine to invest in someone elses (Stocks).

It's not for nothing. It's to help others. When I see the effects helping others has it does make me feel great. Thats what I get out of it. Your hatred and bias makes you believe I nor other Reps or conservatives help others in big ways. Got news for ya Tom. Every single organization I've ever belonged to that does charitable work was mostly conservatives. Such as our local 20-30 club but I'm older than 39 so that was awhile ago! Liberals are all talk and little action themselves.

No Tom, that would be your bias talking. You keep telling me how I am through your own beliefs devoid of factual substance. I, like most conservatives give considerably through their own time as well as money. You do not see that because you choose not too. It goes against what you believe.

Write off? Ok, I donate $60,000 a year and that helps me finacially exactly how? Even if it were all tax deductible (which its not) it will not generate me anywheres near 60K in tax savings. Not even close. Write off huh? Good grief.

No Tom, thats your hatred talking rather than reality. While I have no idea I'd be willing to wager I give far more of my own time and money helping others than you. Put your time and money where your mouth is Tom.

Huh? They don't work for me. Geez are you on a rampage of pure biased hatred tonight!

If they are so hard to do then the company would be hard pressed to find someone capable of doing that job for minimum wage.

That does not explain why you feel its wrong to invest in ones own company and retire on its returns. Why is it wrong when investing in others companies is fine?
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Only a conservative would assume such a thing. Perhaps what I hear is different than what you do. Could that be possible???

I've done no such thing but unless you have heard from the majority of the popullation and you haven't, your claims are as invalid as you claim mine to be.

LOL, the only one making the claim that liberals or anyone else are telling people how they feel is you. I am simply going by what I am told and the number of them coming here goes against everything that you say.

Please expalin to me how this paragraph above has anything at all to do with the one you were replying to. As for investing, I am all for that but please expalain to me how you are investing in your company. As far as I can see, you are not doing anything more than any of your other employees so are you saying that they all have this same oppertunity?

I never said that Miles but as I have said many times, if thise business owners (many of them conservatives) actually paid their employee's a living wage, then most of this "help" would be unnecessary.

LOL, perhaps that's because most of them are conservative organizations to begin with. Not going to find many liberals there as the heated political arguments and different ways of thinking wouldn't get much done. Now you make the claim that because there were few liberals involved in a conservative organization that they don't do anything. Could you possibly sound any more ignorant.

No miles, I just see the big picture and you keep making claims that you cannot possibly back up. If what you say is true and I have no reason not to believe you, then you do seem to give but saying that most conservatives do as well is nothing more than your belief and the fact that we have so many in this country without health insurance and considered working poor says something completely different. Face it Miles, as long as there are poor in need, those above them have power and control over them and that is something not so easy to give up and sadly, many of those that give are doing it to maintain that power and control.

You may give more money than I do Miles, but then again, you make more than I do. As for time, I doubt that.

First you say that you are helping the people that you work with and now you say that they don't work for you. Which way is it?

LOL, and now we are back to the beginning of this whole long winded argument and you are correct, it would be hard to get American workers to do it so they hire the illegals who are willing to work that hard for so little because it is still better than what they had where they came from. Thanks for backing my point up once again.

How exactly are you investing Miles and how many of your employees who are also working to make your company a success able to invest in it this way?
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TBone wrote:

You've never been there or heard from anyone that I have yet you've 'heard' huh? Sorry TBone, I do not assume anything...that would be your liberal mentality. Geez is your far radical left side coming out in full force! Trying to tell someone that they're really miserable and how your liberal socialistic policies can save them from their misery. Unbelievable you really believe your rhetoric!

You've never traveled to Mexico and spoken with the locals yet you know them better huh? Too funny.

No TBone, you keep telling me how you know they are really miserable even though they say they are not. Now you deny trying to tell them they must be wrong?

Those coming here are not representative of the Mexican population as a whole. They are a select segment of the population...not Mexico.

Huh? One can't invest in their own company? Hmm...

I do the same thing as employees huh? So what you are saying is that the Walmart door greeter is doing the same thing as the store manager. Good grief!

Most do just that. Minimum wage at my company is $10/hr to start for a totally unskilled job such as front receptionist who mostly reads books and greets the occasional client. Ya, I know, that person should make $20 or $30 I'm sure.

Yep and thats because liberals do not start nor belong to very many such organizations. They're all talk with other peoples money instead of their own money and time.

Not so at all. I grew up around top politicians and business owners. Every one of them gave considerable sums of money and more importantly their time directly helping others. Many business owners started very worthwhile charitable organizations. Ya, I know, it was all for some tax write off that somehow magically generated them more money. Could never have been because they wanted to help others.

How is that the republicans and conservatives fault and not just as much the Democrats and liberals? It's not. Furthermore socialistic welfare handouts of the left have never done a thing to reduce poverty. But they have in many cases oppressed.

Yes, and liberals do that extremely well through their social hand out programs. They gain and maintain control through them. You've told me you agree and are against such welfare programs. Yet, these are exactly what the Democrats keep promoting and you support them.

You're confused. I 'work' often with kids by spending time with them, taking them places they would never be able to go otherwise. I 'work' with their families helping them to have better homes and learn how to gain skills to be less dependent on society.

Feel free to invest any of your own money yourself and you too can partake in any returns. You seem to feel that owners who use their own funds to start a company and then continue to invest their own money shouldn't make a return greater than the investment. Sorry TBone, thats what investments are whether into my own company or someone elses (stocks). So I guess now we need some sort of socialized investment program where even those that don't invest still get a return?
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Are you now saying that you have personaly spoken to every citizen of Mexico amd if not, then WTF are you talking about? NC has a rather high Mexican population and I speak to quite a few of them both legal and possibly not. Most say they came for the same reason, the living conditions and sorry Miles, they are not all uneducated lazy slugs as you would have us believe.

Is your argument really this weak. Oh hell, who am I asking, of course it is.

I don't have to. There are more than enough of them here.

Sorry to burst your bubble Miles, but "they" say no such thing. Perhaps the select few that your wealthy parents know probably do but that is not representitive of the entire population. Now I know that you will go on talking about your sister in law but yet again, she is also not....

HTF do you know this Miles??? Have you been sitting at the border interviewing them as they cross over? This is just your assumption and nothing more.

As usual, you don't answer the question. How exactly are you investing in the company?

In many cases, that would be correct. Please explain what you do that is really all that different than anyone else short of your receptionist.

Well, you are the one that said that the illegals in your area are getting $15 an hour and up for not doing all that much more work. $10/hr comes out to a little more than 20G a year. Could you live in your area on that and I'm not talking about living the way that you do. Could you reasonably live on that at all? If so, then you are doing the right thing but even here in NC, it would be difficult to do.

Once again, you spew out complete horse shit that as usual, you cannot possibly back up.

If they can afford to do this, then why didn't they give more money to their lower paid employees and eliminate the problem before it starts? Sounds to me like these business owners just like that feeling of power.

Crack open a history book and then get back to me on that.

Once again, you really don't know WTF you are talking about.

LOL, more spin.

Perhaps if people like yourself would stop justifying the lowest pay possible and started paying people that work hard and are dependable a working wage, this would be much less necessary. Any way that you want to spin it Miles, there are simply not enough skilled jobs available for everyone that needs them.

More right wing spin and justifications. I have asked over and over exactly how you are investing in your company and you have yet to actually answer it. Why is that Miles? As for return on investment, I would say that by now, your company has returned your initial investment many times over so how much is enough Miles? The simple fact Miles is that you are doing nothing more than any of your other employees so how exactly are you investing and they are not?

LOL, how exactly are your employees not investing in your company and you are?
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TBone wrote:

Hmm, WTF are you talking about? I've spoken with many locals all over Mexico. You've spoken with none yet you've 'heard' them and know they can't be happy even if they say they are. Typical liberal rhetoric of thinking you can tell people what they need and how they feel.

LOL, That TBone says it all. Thats those in the USA. A select segment of the Mexican population. Until you travel there TBone you have no clue about anything in Mexico despite your lame attempts. It's too much for you to admit you know zilch about Mexico so instead you argue as you have been.

You feel you can understand Mexico by the select segment that come to the USA? LOL, if you ever travel to Mexico you're in for a huge does of enlightenment. You'll find the people in Mexico are generally vastly different in many ways. But go ahead with your fantasy then travel there with your expectations.

lol, they're over in Baja. I haven't even mentioned anyone over there but go on with your rhetoric! You base your entire knowledge of Mexico on a select few that have come to the USA. Too funny.

Because TBone, I know many of them here in the USA just like you. I also have traveled around Mexico and see the difference. You have not and yet you know more about Mexico? Don't think so Tom but feel free to argue some more about a country you've never been to. It's darn right laughable!

By continually improving and updating technology in order to stay competitive. Now Tom, explain your question itself. You seem to have trouble with investing in a company.

WTF are you talking about? All jobs are really all the same and therefore everyone should be paid about the same?? WTF are you trying to say here? You really feel the receptionist can manage the company? Too funny.
$10/hr comes out

Yes I realize your communistic tendencies with regards to setting salaries on ones needs rather than on ones abilities. Sorry, that system has not worked well anywhere its been tried.

Oh of course. Gotta be all about power. Every business owner I deal with pays their employees far above market wages as well as union wages in the area. Thats how good businesses keep their skilled employees rather than loose them to the competition. But I don't expect you to comprehend that philosophy because it is counter to your bias and hatred.

Oh by all means do tell! Please explain the great social programs that have reduced poverty. Explain what sustained years poverty dropped substantially in this country as a direct result of social hand outs. Sorry TBone, there has been and always will be poverty.

What are you saying? So we need to create them like Russia does? Pay intro level unskilled workers based on needs rather than abilities? Thats been done in Russia. Guess what? They were still just as poor as ever but you've never understand why it doesn't work.

I see. So Tom, do you invest in anything for your retirement? If you even have a modest return of only 8% your money will double every 10 years. So your initial investment will be returned many times over in time. Thats just wrong to you huh? What warped logic.
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I find that hard to believe Miles. The way that you described your childhood shows that your parents liked to be involved with the upper classes so I really doubt that they delt much with the poor in Mexico. Sure, compared to the way you probably lived, many of them seemed poor compared to your standard of living, but as you say, they have a different life style and probably were somewhat well off compared to the ones I'm talking about.

LOL, sorry Miles, but you really don't have a clue. I'm sure that in the areas that you hung out in Mexico many of the people there are happy but that does not make it the whole country. You then make the claim that only a select group of people from there are unhappy and say that they are the un and under educated but give no reason as to why. The reason Miles, is that they didn't have the privilege to go to school as for many, there were no schools in the area and even if there were, they needed their children to work as soon as they could to put food on the table because they simply couldn't make enough money to do it on their own and the social program in Mexico that YOU posted giving money to families with children to keep them in school confirms that very thing.

LOL, nobody ever said that everyone in Mexico wanted to leave Miles. But with over 40% at or below the poverty line, if even only 20% of those people want to leave, that is a significantly large number and not all of these people are either ignorant or lazy.

LOL, if it were only a few, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sorry Miles, but the only one laughable right now is you. Nobody said that they all want to come here but there are enough to make the borders a problem.

Sorry Miles, but that's how any company stays in business and every manager does or at least tries to do that and no matter how much tech you have, without skilled hard working people, you will still go under so it seems that your employees are investing the same amount as you do. Why is it then that they, unlike you, get nothing more than a paycheck? If you invest then you should get a return, right Miles?

Yawn, your spin is really getting old. I didn't say that the receptionist could or should manage the company. What I said was that just like you, he or she is doing her job to the best of their ability and since you are doing nothing more than your job just like everyone else, why is it that you are the only one investing or should I say, the only one that will get anything long term from that investment. Sorry Miles, but that is just greed, plain and simple.

This one really isn't working either but that is not the point. The point or the question rather, is why do these buisness owners like you refuse to pay a living wage and yet, give to charities that help these same people that they underpay???? Sounds like a power trip to me.

LOL, sorry Miles, but I simply don't believe you. $10 an hour is not a living wage where you are and you know that.

If it wasn't for many of these programs Miles, there would have been a revolution and I fear that we really are not all that far from it now. You really need to crack open a history book every now and then. And you are right Miles, as long as people with your ideas exist, there will always be a much higher level of poverty then there need be.

It didn't work for the same reason our system doesn't work either Miles, greed and corruption. I never said that everyone should make the same money regardless of their skill level or job type but everyone who works full time should be paid a living wage. If that were the case, then there wouldn't be the need for so many money wasting social programs and that money could be used for both more valid assistance type programs and returned to the tax payers in lower taxes. It would also mean more people with money to spend which equates to more customers and more growth, IOW, a healthy economy. Why is it so hard for people like you to understand that?

Yes I do but many simply cannot afford to due to people like you.

LOL, 8% is far from modest in todays economy but why would that matter to you.

No Miles, it's not but that's not what you are doing and you know it.
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TBone wrote:

Oh geez. There goes your warped biased arrogant views again. I lived in Mexico most of the summers and often through the rest of the year as a kid. In an old old airstream trailer that wasn't very big. Yes, we dealt with the poor in Mexico quite a bit in those years. Your hatred arrogance blinds you to reality.

Never said it did. But you paint a picture of a country in dire straights of poverty and filth and it's nothing of the sort. You are vastly mistaken if you feel the majority of Mexicans are dirt poor, starving and miserable.

Those are the remote villages with very small populations. Thats not the majority of Mexico you claim are miserable. Even in those villages not everyone is miserable. Many despise the cities where jobs and to you better living standards exist. Some want the remote simple old fashioned village life.

So 40% must be miserable huh? The USA has about 15% living below the poverty level. However, most at around the poverty level have a home, car, tv, a/c and more.

WTF are you talking about? There you go again thinking that someone who starts and runs a company should make no more return on their investment than the door greeter at Walmart. After all, that greeter 'invested' the same amount according to you. Ya, lets all live in a world where everything is equal, no rich, no poor, everyone taken care of.

Returns on investment comes with taking risk. Generally the higher you're willing to risk then the higher the return on your investment. An employee isn't taking the same risk as someone who puts their own paycheck back into the company. If they decide to go elsewhere what do they loose? If an investor walks away they loose everything they invested. They take a higher risk.

Because I dump a large share of my own money back into the company instead of my pocket. I started the company with money earned over many years of hard work and living near poverty. Yet to you I'm entitled to the same returns as a receptionist who started yesterday.

Like me huh? I pay well above market value and give well above average raises and benefits. Tell me Tom, how much should the walmart door greeter type unskilled job earn? $10/hr, 20, 30? What Tom, name it without being vague or generalizing.

Thats minimum wage at my company for a totally unskilled off the street job. So whats a living wage to you? $15, $20, $30? So an unskilled worker like a Walmart greeter should make a livable wage of $20/hr? You're being absurd here Tom!

Oh bull. These programs have never reduced poverty. If anything they have raised it because they oppress people through dependency on Government rather than themselves. I asked you to give a solid example of a program that reduced poverty and you can't even name one.

So pay based on need rather than ability. Great in concept, fails in reality where its been tried. What do you think would happen if we made the minimum wage $25/hr? Think there would be less poverty? Guess again.

So you do invest. Good for you. I hope you are only going to take back the amount you invested and nothing more. You are telling me that taking more than I invested into my company is greedy and wrong. So you do the same with your investments too. Fair enough for ya?

You aren't earning at least 8% on your investments? Geez Tom, you need a better investment adviser!! In todays economy returns well above 8% are easy to achieve.

Sure it is Tom. I invest in my own company and like investing in someone elses (stocks) I should get back several times my own investment over time.
If all you care about is time spent working as 'investing' then I should get even more. I spent YEARS working at near poverty working my way up. Thats an investment.
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LOL, you really need to make up your mind Miles. Just before you calimed to have grown up around high powered politicians and business owners and now you are making a very different claim. Why was it that you lived in Mexico? Was that a summer place and if so, I still doubt that you delt with the truly poor.

The majority, no but with over 40% at or below the poverty level, there are a large number that live exactly that way. If this were not the case, then we would not be having the problems that we now are.

Why do you feel the need to constantly spin. Please give me even one ling to where I said everyone was miserable.

Did I actually say that? Nope, that is just more of your creative editing but I would say that most if them are not happy with their situation

And once again, you don't know WTF you are talking about although I do see the word play here. How typically right wing of you.

What is this thing that you have with Walmart door greeters? You do realise that the Walmart door greeter is actually part of their security system, right??? Nobody is saying that a Walmart door greeter should make as much as the store manager or even a department manager but if they are not maing enough to pay the bills, why bother to do it at all?

Actually, I believe that they call that Heaven. Don't you believe Miles or would you just rather not got there?

Nobody is arguing that Miles but you have yet to define how much is enough.

That is not always true. Many employees work for these companies during their early stages and sometimes don't get paid every week and if the company goes under, they lost their time and job and in todays market, that is a real risk. There also comes the time where the person starting the company is no longer putting their own paycheck back into the company and once that point is reached, they are at no more risk than any other worker.

And if they decise to stay with what you believe, what do they gain?

LOL, why would they do that?

Back to the Walmart door greeter huh?? How can anyone be specific Miles when there are Walmarts all over the country and even in other countries.

A living wage is whatever it takes to live in a particular area. I suppose that it could be any one of your above suggestions depending on what area you live in. Why do you keep bringing up that Walmart greeter. Is your argument really that weak? But even with the Walmart greeter, they are the first and last WalMart employee that the customer sees so it would make sense to put the best peron in that position.

I asked you to show me all of these social programs in Mexico that make it so easy for the people there and all you came up with is a program that proved my point. I agree, many of these programs are so crippled by people like you that they do little more than prevent people from becoming so desperate that they have nothing to lose and the crime rate soars.

Once again Miles, you resort to spin. The minimum wage should be based on need and anything above that should be based on ability.

LOL, where did I say that an investment should only return what you put in? Oh, that's right, I didn't. It's just more of your lame right wing spin. The question Miles, is how much is enough? To you and those like you, it is never enough. Sure, you are more than ready to define enough for your employees with your "market value" bullshit but as far as you and others like you are concerned, the sky is the limit, even if you have to screw your customers and employees to do it.

LOL, once again, you more than prove that you don't know WTF you are talking about.

I hope that you do but you still have yet to explain how you are investing in your own company and don't give me that BS about you putting your pay back into it.

Yes it is Miles and just by the amount that you claim to give to charity alone, it has more than paid you back.
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