Removing transmission

Page 2 of 8  


At your age, you gotta touch everything you can sneak up on...
<GBMFG>
Denny
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Now that was funny!<GBMFG>
Roy
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
At your age, you still get slapped if you do
-- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Tom, you have never seen that wide ride waddle into a restaurant. Now that is a target.
Roy
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
And, pray tell, what qualifications do you have?
And learn how to quote properly. Your posts are hard to read and if you continue, I'm sure many, including myself, would rather just kill file you rather than wade thru the junk
-- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.
wrote in message
Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

In theory, yes. In reality, stranger things have happened.

Sorta like you.

Then we agree.

While that is a better way to describe it, it also describes what a spring does.

Unfortunately, when refering to a gas, you are referring to something that is elastic in nature, acting like a spring. As such, they act more alike than not.

Prime example of your lack of reading. I stated it as a generality, not a specific, and noted that odd conditions could occur and thus every situation was different, thus DEBATABLE.

Excep for the fact that we agree, and you haven't figured it out yet.

I think your statements are regarding a perfect design and conditions. Typical of a mechanic that does only one thing and does it well. Come out to where there are a fascinating array of designs and problems, and your textbook world crumbles.

Good luck. Your wording and style have already proven what you are.
--
Max

Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked.
10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic.
Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package. -- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.
(Max Dodge) wrote in message:
Budd is correct, many times in a hydraulic clutch design, the throwout bearing continues to ride lightly on the clutch fingers.
It is assumed that as long as the pressure is light (gravity feed of fluid is very light) it will have little effect on th clutch. -- Max Give a man a match, and he is warm for a short while. Light him on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life.
================ Here Max, hold still....while i set yer shirt tail on fire......
Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him.
You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of gravity have nothing to do with the bearing apply. It's the effect of that spring jammed in behind that "slave cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather.
like it was designed to do.
~:~ MarshMonster ========================
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
. . <inline> ========== ========== snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (BuddCochran) wrote to marshmonster:
I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked.
10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic. Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package.
--
Budd Cochran

WARNING!!!
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
(Budd Cochran) wrote to marshmonster:
I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked.
10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic. Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package. -- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ==============================Budd, I did'nt throw it at you ...that's why you didn't catch it.
Why not? I've been in this group since 96 and most of the long term subscribers know my qualifications and my accuracy.
and jeez....... with 30 years small engine expeirience i'm show not gonna argue clutch BASICS with you....
<LOL> Then you don't know small engines. Do you realize that a small, single cylinder engine is harder to maintain than a V-10, proportionally speaking? Why? Only one cylinder. If the engine isn't right, it won't run. Apply that level of workmanship to a V-8 and watch it scream.
As for clutch basics . . . .want to talk about 12" dia. clutch / fluid coupling R/R as is needed by the Yale-Towne forklifts from the 40's to 60's, since they used a two speed forward / two speed reverse manual transmission weighing a svelte 450 pounds and a fluid coupling / clutch assembly that weighed 100 pounds (come on, line up the splines, buddy). Or how about a 36" air operated multi-plate clutch used on a 300 ton smack press?
Though i may continue to correct you when you're wrong....specially as seing as you may need to know it, being as you'se work'n on all them heavy trucks and all.
Actually, forklifts were the primary equipment I repaired but that is only one application of my hydraulics knowledge, and the cylinder that got hot and bent the exhaust pipe was on a vertical Pines tubing bender (remember, millwright journeyman?).
Now, if we could also get you to write like someone with the intelligence to pour water out of a boot with directions on the heel, maybe you would be understood better. Yeah, I use slang terms, but only in fun, not to demonstrate my I.Q.
~:~ MarshMonster ~certifiable~
.and...reely fkng gud at what he dooos..
Except when it comes to being intelligent.
~:~ WARNING Poster believes he has but forth an effort to show intelligence, logic, common sense, and courtesy in his replies.....by not saying that you evidently had no understanding at all about the system being discussed and therefore should forgo giving advice that may cause the OP to go chasing his arse around trying to figure out what the heck is going on with his truck.....instead i looked toward religious beliefs and turned the other cheek and simply corrected your bad advice. Hope society can deal with that. if not....oh well.
Thank you for the complement.
-- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
. . <inline> ========== ========== snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net (BigAl) wrote in message:
Ok, by what design?
The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder.
I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm.
On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al ========= =========
The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)
Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time.
A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed.
The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston.........
and....wah..lah...... no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package.
Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply?
~:~ MarshMonster ~has to go work on his truck....got to get that brake master cylinder below the level of the calipers~
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
(Big Al) wrote in message:
Ok, by what design?
The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder.
I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm.
On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al ================ The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)
Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time.
A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed.
The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston.........
Thank you for trying to understand this crap design. So, the engineers think it's OK to have the throw out bearing spin continously. That's why they don't last as long as they used to. In the interest of lower cost, the engineers have again screw us with a poor design.
If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in.
~:~ MarshMonster
~has to go work on his truck....got to get that brake master cylinder below the level of the calipers~
Another problem I had to deal with in my 74 Camaro race car. At least I figured that one out by myself.
Al
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
. . <inline> ======= ======= Re: Removing transmission....Fact not Fiction Group: alt.autos.dodge.trucks Date: Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 5:31pm (CDT-2) From: snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net (BigAl)
(Big Al) wrote in message:
<edited>
I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm.
Al ========= ========= MarshMonster replied:
<snip> The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)
<snip>
A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed.
~:~ MarshMonster ============ ============ Thank you for trying to understand this crap design.
So, the engineers think it's OK to have the throw out bearing spin continously. That's why they don't last as long as they used to. In the interest of lower cost, the engineers have again screw us with a poor design.
If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. Al ======== ========
yer welcome, it's my job to understand it.
Let's not get started on engineers.... dey got big egos and are lurk'n about ready to defend their idiotic reasonings at all times.
Eventhough I have found many errors in Budds advice....I don't recall him posting the spring thing on a hydraulic set up in this thread. But I'm gonna re-read the thread to find out if he did....and if he did.......we'll see if we can't keep the thread lively....lol.
~:~ MarshMonster
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Generally not enough pressure to cause the bearing to spin all the time - just rub gently and slowly rotate.

And you would need to adjust the clutch, just like on a mechanical system. SOME hydraulic systems actually do work this way. Spring and all.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

to
Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they? Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment. With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line.
-- Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,
common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs
are still important in our society, and might include
them in his posts.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

With a hydraulic lifter, I assume that's what you're talking about, you want a light pressure on the valve to keep the lash to zero. We are talking about a throw out bearing rotating when the engine is running. It's not the same.
We were taught NOT to have pressure on the bearing all the time. Hence the free play adjustment. That's what we're discussing. Apparently the engineers decided to reduce the cost of the clutch linkage, they would just sacrifice the throw out bearing. Another example of this fine engineering is the new Dodge truck 4X4 front axles, with no disconnect. What the Hell, it don't cost them money to drive the axle all the time, it saves it. We however get to pay for it every day. Just like in the old days when full time 4 wheel drive came and went. By the way that was another Chrysler design.
Al
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

way
advantage
want
about
same.
No, Al, the rod that pushes the piston in the master cylinder or the rod that pushes the clutch arm or the rod that pushes Curly off the Three Stooges boat is a push rod.

engineers
sacrifice
Bearing design, metallurgy, even the lubricants used today are much different than just 10 years ago.
But if the rod is retained with a simple synthetic rubber ring in the socket on the piston on the slave cylinder, a light spring used to ensure retraction, there can be a freeplay clearance.
No pressure all the time? Well, gee, how do wheel bearings last 100K, axle bearings, . . . .Al, even when not rotating, bearings have pressure on them of some kind.

get
Yep, and it actually worked well as designed, drove them in the military, but gas mileage was destroyed. Right now there's a 78 Dodge sitting at parts store for sale for $1200 and it's a full time 4X4. From what I can find out the only problem with it is . . .gas mileage.
Budd
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
. . <inline> ========== ==========
If the hydraulic system had a spring like Budd said there would be no way to control free play. it would just "return" the slave all the way in. Al ============= ============ snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (BuddCochran) wrote:
Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they?
Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment.
With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line.
--
Budd Cochran
WARNING!!!
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
(Budd Cochran) wrote:
Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they?
Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment.
With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line. -- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ================================uh Budd, you should use some of that intelligence, logic, and common sense you want others to use in their posts.
Uh, sorry, I'm stating that I will use regardless of idiots like yourself.
1) Big AL was referring to slave cylinders... as were You in the post he was referring back to!!
Yep, but many items in the designs are common between master cylinders and slave cylinders. One of the disadvantages to readily available over the counter rebuilt parts is that people like yourself have never had the enjoyment of reaming out a rusty cylinder and installing a rebuild kit then reinstalling the cylinder.
2) On hydraulic clutch systems (which is what the thread has become about) the adjustable push rod is on the master cylinder.....not on the slave cylinder, and we have been discussing the slave cylinder....and so have you.
Not all have the adjustment on the master cylinder end.
3) Most of the systems DO NOT incorporate an adjustable push rod at all.
MOST??? You still haven't given me, if no one else, any reason to believe you even know which end your head is on.
so....that jest chunks one more kink in yer hydraulic theories.
Nope, just different systems than ones I've worked on.
4) as far as hydraulic setups being easy...... they're easy to me, and it's easy to see, that you think they're easy to thee, but I can see, that you should be, more concerned with a diagnostic tree.....in order to be...more proficient you see...when you debate with me.....hydraulic formalities.
Ok, let's see . . . .move 100,000 pounds four miles with 3.5 hp.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
(Big Al) wrote in message:
Ok, by what design?
The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder.
I don't see any way for the slave to back off the throw out arm.
On an old truck with mechanical linkage, there are two springs to keep the throw out bearing off the pressure plate fingers. And, when adjusted correctly, it works. Al ================ The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)
Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time.
ROTFLMBO!!! Got news for you, friend. There are many hydraulic pushrod / socket arrangements that have slack in them . . .Ya just need a socket made a little deeper or a soft rubber retainer to hold them together . . .look at the brake pedal push rod if you need proof. And before you cackle again, the hydraulic pressure on this rod is from the return springs on your braking system pushing it back up after a brake application..
A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed.
That setup is wrong. The spring has to return the piston.
The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston.........
And your throwout bearing gets the bejesus worn out of it in short order.
and....wah..lah......
It's "voila!" (Fr) [Phonetic: v-wa-la], genius. oh, btw Miss Piggy doesn't say it right.
no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package.
Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply?
Uh, strokes, which are what a piston does are not measured in RPMs, but strokes per (minute, second, day, year, millennium; pick one)
~:~ MarshMonster ~has to go work on his truck....got to get that brake master cylinder below the level of the calipers~
Well, if your driving is anything like your knowledge, then just head for the nearest sharp curve and you'll get the master cylinder below, above, below, above, below . . . .
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
. . <INLINE> =========== =========== snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net (Big Al) wrote in message:
Ok, by what design? The master cylinder is above the slave cylinder. Gravity would put some pressure on the slave cylinder.
<snip>
Al ========= ========= because Budd rearanged all the electrons in the post so's he could rant fer his own benefit.. the following is in Broadway script form... (quite appropriate being as this has turned into a comedy)
(MARSH replied)
The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)
Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time.
<BUDD said)
ROTFLMBO!!! Got news for you, friend. There are many hydraulic pushrod / socket arrangements that have slack in them . . .Ya just need a socket made a little deeper or a soft rubber retainer to hold them together . . look at the brake pedal push rod if you need proof .
And before you cackle again, the hydraulic pressure on this rod is from the return springs on your braking system pushing it back up after a brake application..
(MARSH said)
A spring placed BEHIND the apply piston inside the slave keeps the piston forward, pushing forward the apply rod, against the release arm, moving the release bearing forward on the bearing retainer, which rides in contact with the pressure plate......AT ALL TIMES, unless the systems fubar'ed.
<BUDD says>
That setup is wrong. The spring has to return the piston.
(MARSH stated))
The spring tension of the Pressure Plate works against the spring tension of the Slave Cylinder apply piston.........
<BUDD said>
And your throwout bearing gets the bejesus worn out of it in short order. and....wah..lah...... It's "voila!" (Fr) [Phonetic: v-wa-la], genius. oh, btw Miss Piggy doesn't say it right.
(MARSH SAID) no hydraulic pressure..... Jest an ole timey mechanical spring and arm set up........in a fancy package.
<BUDD cackled> Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
(MARSH asked)
Can you figure out why the piston can move in and out at over 1500 rpms without creating hydr. pres. that would actually cause the clutch to apply?
(BUDD said)
Uh, strokes, which are what a piston does are not measured in RPMs, but strokes per (minute, second, day, year, millennium; pick one)
<snip>
========= ========= Budd,
#1) if you need to be adding sockets and rubber to hold yer pushrods in.....then you shouldn't be giving the OP advice on how to do a good job...
#2) we're are not discussing brakes...and if we were.....could you please tell me where I could find the return springs in my brake system that's causing hydraulic pressure to push the pedal back up...rotflmfao at yer total ignorance of brake hydraulics too.
#3) now this ones tricky....cuz yer correct.....
The spring does return the piston.... jest as I STATED.......... but the for the life of me I can't figure out why you said the setup was wrong but then in the next sentence confirmed what I said. (must've been on the last glass of shroom juice on that one ....aye?)
#4) for the last time you ignernt fool...... the release bearing RIDES ON THE FINGERS of the pressure plate....that's a fact..... and you rant'n on about a release bearing get'n the "bejesus worn out of it in short order", is not gonna change that fact!!!!
we can debate why the bearing ain't wearing out all the time if you like....but be advised... I'm likely to come out ahead in the spitting match....cuz i'm will'n to bet that i got a hell of a lot better handle on a clutch system than you do....
#5) i wuz'nt gonna call you names in this thread... but you done started it ... so.......
idiot (at least on clutch systems...and i'm start'n to hope ain't no heavy trucks runn'n round my area that you did brake jobs on too)
~:~ MARSHMONSTER ~certifiable...not certified~
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.