Removing transmission

Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they?

Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment.

With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line.

-- Budd Cochran WARNING!!! Poster still believes that intelligence, logic, common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs are still important in our society, and might include them in his posts. ================= ================= uh Budd, you should use some of that intelligence, logic, and common sense you want others to use in their posts.

Uh, sorry, I'm stating that I will use regardless of idiots like yourself.

1) Big AL was referring to slave cylinders... as were You in the post he was referring back to!!

Yep, but many items in the designs are common between master cylinders and slave cylinders. One of the disadvantages to readily available over the counter rebuilt parts is that people like yourself have never had the enjoyment of reaming out a rusty cylinder and installing a rebuild kit then reinstalling the cylinder.

2) On hydraulic clutch systems (which is what the thread has become about) the adjustable push rod is on the master cylinder.....not on the slave cylinder, and we have been discussing the slave cylinder....and so have you.

Not all have the adjustment on the master cylinder end.

3) Most of the systems DO NOT incorporate an adjustable push rod at all.

MOST??? You still haven't given me, if no one else, any reason to believe you even know which end your head is on.

so....that jest chunks one more kink in yer hydraulic theories.

Nope, just different systems than ones I've worked on.

4) as far as hydraulic setups being easy...... they're easy to me, and it's easy to see, that you think they're easy to thee, but I can see, that you should be, more concerned with a diagnostic tree.....in order to be...more proficient you see...when you debate with me.....hydraulic formalities.

Ok, let's see . . . .move 100,000 pounds four miles with 3.5 hp.

Al ========= ========= because Budd rearanged all the electrons in the post so's he could rant fer his own benefit.. the following is in Broadway script form... (quite appropriate being as this has turned into a comedy)

Only because we're laughing at your deliberately poor English.

(MARSH replied)

The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)

So, how many ways can a link to a piston be connected?

Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time.

Then you have not the knowledge you think you have.

Well, Al, you got to me a long time ago, but I decided to remain peacable.

And the water rises due to convection currents. Any expansion is negligible.

-- Budd Cochran

WARNING!!!

Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,

common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs

are still important in our society, and might include

them in his posts.

I accept and allow me to apologize for a post I just sent to the other reply.

-- Budd Cochran

Go back to the third grade and stay awake this time.

Or did you even get that far?

-- Budd Cochran

WARNING!!!

Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,

common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs

are still important in our society, and might include

them in his posts.

a question...........

if the air COULD....expand due to heat and apply the bearing.....

then why isn't the fluid expanding and applying the bearing????????

air compress's

brake fluid DOES NOT

~:~ Marsh ~:~

========== ========== snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) replied:

Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . .

or have you forgotten how a hot air balloon works ( generally taught by the time you get to the third grade).

-- Budd Cochran ============= ============= Budd, you have not ceased to amaze me at your ability to prove yourself wrong without even suspecting you're doing it.

(quoting you) "Air expands when heated, most fluids do not"

lmao

1) i did not say air would not expand when heated.

i DID say it compress's

i also DID say that brake fluid would not compress. (please take note...there will be a quiz)

2) i see you stated in open forum that... (and i do quote) "most fluids do not" expand.

could YOU...... maybe..... possibly.... hopefully...

pull out of yer arse.....

jest one fluid that DOES expand when heated,

maybe one that applies to this thread.....??

go ahead...jest one..

i dare you....

NO DAMNITT.....not engine coolant!!!

rotflmao @ budd

3) as previously stated, I AM aware that hot air expands.....(jest look what you've done to this thread with all yers)...and I am aware of it's effects on balloons, though I am not sure I learned it in third grade.

4) I feel sure that you have'nt mastered the concept of hydraulic brake and clutch systems yet......something that is learned in the 1st or

2nd year of apprenticeship as an auto tech......

rotflmao @ the small eng. tech / heav. trk tech.

~:~ MarshMonster ~eats nibbles on a cotterpin and chase's it down with some gear oil~

On the Pines bender in the example, the pistons have orifices to allow the wing die to follow the bending action. Pressure from the pump is applied to both sides of the piston with the extend line having up 30% higher flow to maintain contact with the pipe. In this example, the cylinder had been just rebuilt and was being installed. The millwright left the job for lunch and someone tossed a cigarette butt in the oily mess on the floor below the cylinder. The cylinder was connected, but no oil had flowed yet in a systems test.

I was the apprentice millwright on the job that day. When we heard the fire alarm, we went to help put it out and that's when I saw the bent pipe. The opposing wing die had not moved even though it is in parallel in the hydraulic circuit.

He had been told repeatedly to clean up the mess of oil absorbent (Petro-sorb) and dirt that he had tossed under the cylinder to catch the drips from the worn shaft seals. Another employee walked by and tossed a butt in the mess.

It can.

Not in all systems.

Ah, but would he admit it? I've caught many a forklift driver doing just that but had them refuse to admit it.

Budd

-- Budd Cochran ================= =================

That's not possible.

The clutch WILL NOT apply under any scenario resulting from an improperly bled system.

Never... Ever...

~:~ MarshM Not a hydraulics expert, are you?

-- Budd Cochran ============ ============ Budd, I haven't claimed to be.

Yeah, you have, by implication and deriding my training.

You however.....have PROVEN you aren't by the posts you've made in this thread.

Yeah, I have, but you aren't able to see it.

I will claim this...... I know this guys hydraulic clutch system a dang site better than you do.

Really? And what was it again that gives you the qualifications?

I will also say this....... I noticed you attempted to attack my ability to provide sound advice by questioning my credentials........instead of giving explanation of your (incorrect) statement that heat could hold pressure on the release bearing.

I gave it, you have trouble with English comprehension.

I'm ready to prove that it can't.... lmao

Yep, read your backwoodsy, drunken fool experiments. Guess what? They prove what I say. Get a metal can with a metal screw on cap, open it and heat it on a stove, then seal it and run cold water over it. Watch it pull the same trick as your IQ.

Any questions?

-- Budd Cochran

WARNING!!!

Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,

common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs

are still important in our society, and might include

them in his posts.

I figured that the cylinder had to be empty or near empty to build up that much pressure and like I thought, the system was closed allowing the pressure to build up.

Not seeing the system, I cannot make any valid comment on why it didn't move.

Well, in all honesty, the idiot that threw the butt should have also been canned.

LOL, while the vehicle could catch on fire (the combustion part), no vehicles hydraulic clutch that I am aware of would be in a closed mode at rest and I know that the Dodge is not (since I have one) so at least in this case, and since the OP did not complain about hard shifting (a symptom of air in the system), air in the lines was probably not the cause here.

Possibly not but in automotive systems this will be the case. If you know of a production automotive system that is different, please let me know.

LOL, most people would not and some don't even realize that they are doing it.

Not likely since there is no closed end to allow pressure to build.

Once the master cylinder is in the retracted position the entire system is open to the reservoir, any expansion of the fluid or entrapped air will merely push that volume of fluid back into the reservoir. When the clutch pedal is slightly depressed, the piston covers the MC port to prevent pressure from back feeding into the reservoir.

Again, you talk too much, and snips will be made for brevity.

This assumes a properly working system. If it has an air bubble in it, its not working properly. The scenario you suggest implies that the system will bleed itself over time, which is simply not true in all cases.

Except for the extended period of time for clutch release. which would add to bearing wear.

Wrong, particularly in the case of a diaphragm pressure plate, where the load is higher at the beginning of clutch release than it is after full release. BTW, most clutches now days are the diaphragm design.

Never said it would cause the clutch to slip under full engagement, and specifically noted that it wouldn't.

Yet another attempt on your part to redirect attention from your erroneous BS.

In theory, yes. In reality, stranger things have happened.

Sorta like you.

Then we agree.

While that is a better way to describe it, it also describes what a spring does.

Unfortunately, when refering to a gas, you are referring to something that is elastic in nature, acting like a spring. As such, they act more alike than not.

Prime example of your lack of reading. I stated it as a generality, not a specific, and noted that odd conditions could occur and thus every situation was different, thus DEBATABLE.

Excep for the fact that we agree, and you haven't figured it out yet.

I think your statements are regarding a perfect design and conditions. Typical of a mechanic that does only one thing and does it well. Come out to where there are a fascinating array of designs and problems, and your textbook world crumbles.

Good luck. Your wording and style have already proven what you are.

John has described exactly why there is a problem (and there should be with air in the system). If for whatever reason (and there are many reasons between design and real life) the air does NOT travel back the the master cylinder, it will be trapped when the MC travels past the port. If the air is trapped, it doesn't matter where it is in the system, it will have a negative effect on clutch operation.

Given the variation of designs, from automotive to industrial, air in a hydraulic system can have a negative effect in almost any phase of operation, depending on the system.

As such, we can now debate what amount of air, if that air has more or less of an effect than the preload spring, if the preload spring is there or not, and a myriad of other variables that can occur.

But one irrevocable fact remains: Air isn't supposed to be in the system.

So whether you think you are a clutch expert from the swamp, a wanna be technician named after a cheap cut of beef, or simply an experienced technician, you have to bleed the system.

You're not the only one. I'd much prefer reading a top-post (why the hell do people get so bent out of shape over that? It's easier reading, IMO) than the illegible lack-of-quoting (and over-quoting) that he does. "professional" mechanic or not, if you can't communicate, you're perceived as an idiot.

So that's what happened to me.... I've been pondering that for years..

Denny

Wow.... I've never seen a bigger target painted before.... Roy should have no trouble hitting that one! :)

Gotta give him an easy one every once in a while or he quits playing..

Denny

Tom, you have never seen that wide ride waddle into a restaurant. Now that is a target.

Roy

Thats too easy and ya know it.

Roy

Heck, I won't even touch it . . . . . maybe

-- Budd Cochran