Removing transmission

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bearing."
Do
pressure
return;
TO
this
Uh, John? The OP was concerned about bearing wear in a system that wasn't "normal" . . . . For such systems, "normal" is a range of specs and clearances to allow for SOME variations in operations. If the system is already out of spec, then . . . . . .

In my case, it was learned at the school of hard knocks. . . OJT. So I had to analyze and correct usually without the aid of an instructor or even a manual.
But it also meant I had to do trial and error testing and then determine the benefit or hindrance of each step.

ah, "IN A NORMALLY FUNCTIONING SYSTEM" . . . that's the key isn't it? FYI, that is not as normal an occurrence as many might think.

the
Now you're getting the hang of it.

happen.
Yes, it can, because the system is already not in spec. The clue? The worn bearing.

couple
John, do you believe the history books are dead accurate? Just for kicks, read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and see the history of the west from Lakota eyes.
My point: neither you nor Tom B. realize that not everything follows the "rules".
Budd
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John Kunkel wrote:

The comment was directed at Max but if you want to catch it go right ahead. If you'd step away from the mirror for a while you'd realize that you're not the only one here with lots of "in the trenches" experience.

That's the gist of it, I don't think that anyone here denies that air entrappment in an already plugged up system might cause the problems you claim but your original post and subsequent posts make no mention of other problems. Go back and read the thread.
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shop
had
a
ahead.
not
I don't claim I am, but Marsh monster treats experience as a bad thing to have.

is
FYI,
Don't have to. I remember what I said. My mistake was in forgetting that not everyone remembers this is life, reality, not some textbook.
-- Budd Cochran
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Your mistake was and still is claiming that bleeding air from the forklift system "fixed" the problem. Since a malfunction other than air entrappment had to exist, merely bleeding the system wouldn't eliminate the root problem.
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you
Like I said and Scott has said, you weren't there, unless you were working at Arvin Industries, Inc. 1000 N. Hurricane, Franklin, Indiana, 46131 in 1972 on the night shift maintenance crew doing forklift repair / maintenance.
Were you?
-- Budd Cochran
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Nope, but if I was I would probably have seen what else you unknowingly did besides bleeding to "fix" the problem.
Look back on this forum to the gent who experienced late upshifts after a simple band adjustment. Those of us who understand transmission function realize that bands don't have anything to do with the road speed at which upshifts occur. The respondent correctly opined that, in the process of band adjustment, the TV cable adjustment must have been altered.
Just like in your anecdotal account, it's as easy to suspect the band adjustment was the culprit as your suspicion that entrapped air was the sole problem.
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air
working
did
Would you? Since I was doing a repair on a machine to be used to move equipment weighing up to 10.5 tons into position around my co-workers and friends as the crews installed the equipment, don't you think I would have been quite thorough?

band
So?
sole
Well, John, you admitted you weren't there, so you couldn't have seen the care I took or the time I spent flushing out the air. Yet you presume to think you know exactly what happened.
Fine. Just call me a liar and kill file me.
-- Budd Cochran
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Well, John, I disagree, but then you weren't the one that bled the system and restored the freeplay on that rented 20k pound forklift, were you?
The clue for me was that it got progressively worse as the drivetrain warmed up.
One thing has to be remembered about anything made by human hands; it can do things it isn't supposed to do. -- Budd Cochran

is
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Same system, John, same problems and possibilities.
That's what I'm trying to get T-bone to understand . . .there is no difference in operation or function.
-- Budd Cochran

clearance.
air
clutch
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It is NOT the same system Budd and saying that it is just makes you look foolish. If what you say is true, then the only way that you could compress a brake caliper piston back into it's bore would be to open up the brake bleeder and we both know that you do not have to do that, it may be a good idea, but not a requirement. Nobody else in the group agrees with you here on this point including Max so that alone should tell you something.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
"Budd Cochran" < snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net> wrote in message
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compress
here
The principles of operation are the same, Tom, and in basic design they are the same.. Did you know that some HD clutch systems use a 2 pound residual valve ( like a disk brake) to reduce the possibility of air / water contamination? It uses a slightly heavier return spring to compensate for the pressure.
Btw, you never had a master cylinder piston that couldn't retract properly, have you? Like I reminded John, the system is already screwed up. It is not a perfect text book scenario, Tom.
As for foolish appearances, Tom, that would be anyone that doubts the experiences of a older, more experienced, person and discards them out-of-hand for the simple reason that person is (older, grayer, more experienced, the answer isn't found in some text book, disagrees with some popular answer[correct or not], or . . . . pick as many as you want).
Tom, I'd like to know who made you official spokesman for this group. At this time, anyone that disagrees with Tom's claim of being group spokesman and that no one supports me as a person, they may post a rebuttal.
Don't turn this into one of your diatribes.
-- Budd Cochran
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good
are
And if the pressure exceeds this extra 2 pounds, this system will STILL vent it off to the reservoir just like the ones without it so what is your point?

properly,
not
First of all Budd, you DON'T KNOW what in the system is screwed up. It could be and probably is just a bad bearing and nothing more, it happens. It could also be operator error or just excessive usage as we discussed. Maybe there is something else wrong with the system and if so, then the air would again, not be the cause of the problem, it would be the defective component and the problem would exist whether there was air in it or not.

Just because you are older does not mean that you know more and to think so is foolish. I don't dismiss you or your input out of hand but that does not mean that you are always right. It does seem Budd, that once you have an opinion, you are correct and if someone does not agree with you, they are wrong, simple as that damages your credibility, take it from someone that knows. You made a claim that air in the system would ALWAYS cause this problem and that is incorrect, regardless of what the popular answer is.

Where in the hell did I claim to be the spokesman for anything???? I simply made a comment that was true, and nobody in the list denied it, including Max.

I can see where this is starting to go and like I said, I have no intent of going there.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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"Nobody else in the group agrees with you here on this point including Max so that alone should tell you something."
A blanket statement, implicating you take the position of speaking for everyone.

of
Too late, you already did.
Budd Cochran
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Ok, poor choice of words there. I should have said nobody else in the thread but even in the group, I don't see anyone jumping in to say you are correct here and lets face it, I am far from the group favorite.

intent
Just because you want to believe this, doesn't make it true.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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Max
And I don't claim to even try to be the group favorite, but on the other hand, John Kunkel is the only other one arguing I can't have had the experience with air in a system that I said I did.

Really? Then learn to express yourself without offending.
-- Budd Cochran
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are
He is not arguing it, he said that it probably wasn't what you thought that it was and he is correct. Unless something is preventing the excess pressure from being vented back into the reservoir, the condition you described could not happen, simple laws of motion there. You did say that forklift delt with major damage before you got it and some of that damage may be in the clutch master or its linkage preventing it from venting the pressure buildup due to thermal expansion. The fact that the clutsh system was full of air shows that some damage occured there or in the area of it. Your bleeding the system may have solved the problem of expansion to the pont of slipping the clutch, but it was probably still happening enough to put excessive pressure on the TO bearing that would have been noticed if you had it for longer than a few months.

Did you ever hear of a self fulfilling prophecy? If you are determined to see me insulting you, it will happen even if I am totally unaware of it and never intended to do so. I cannot help this and the only one who can is you.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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Really? What was your first clue? Maybe it was the bearing wear?
In function, they are the same. Heck, the earliest hydraulic brakes were plagued with contamination probs because of the lack of residual pressure valves.
A hydraulic clutch or braking system is nothing more than a pedal / master cylinder / line(s) / slave (wheel cylinder / piston) setup. The only difference is that lack of a common residual valve in the clutch system in most applications.

there,
build
Yep, as in a pedal being ridden, a master piston not retracting completely, a clogged port, a clogged cap vent, a pinched or plugged line, a flap of rubber inside a flexible line, . . .shall I go on? The system is defective, so air can be the problem if not the whole problem.

is
What if the port's plugged due to neglect, contamination or some other thing not found in your manual?

AHA!!!!!! But that's only one scenario. How about the system that worked fine until a hole wore in the metal line between the master and slave cylinders, but a few days after the A.C.E. certified mechanic repaired it, the clutch wouldn't engage?
I'll save you the effort . . .he had replaced the steel line with copper tubing ( hey, it's not a brake system, right?) and chassis flex pinched it shut while the pedal was down. All I did was replace it with steel line and tighten a couple of frame to axle bolts and set it back out. In this case, the steel would have eventually worn thru again, but it wouldn't have crushed.
Outside your little book, ain't it? Btw, It took me a week to convince him that the flexing had even existed . . . .I loosened the bolts, stuck a twenty between the line and frame, jacked up the same side of the vehicle. If he could pull the bill out without tearing, he would prove I was wrong and could keep it.
I didn't lose my twenty.
-- Budd Cochran
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And one of the problems wasn't self-applying.

Correct, and that lack of a RPV means ANY pressure buildup in the system will be equalized in the reservoir.

From your first reply on 10/27 (QUOTE) "However, an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal. (END QUOTE)
Your original claim made no mention of abnormalities other than entrapped air and now you want it to sound like you meant entrapped air in an already malfunctioning system. You and your buddy Max fail to realize your back pedaling is obvious in a forum that archives previous posts.

Your anecdotal claim was that the problem with the forklift was solely caused by air entrapment and that simple bleeding cured the problem. If you were as savvy as you claim to be you would know that simply bleeding air from a system with other malfunctions would have been only a temporary bandaid; the problem would have recurred.
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