Removing transmission

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Just an FYI, Max, I HAVE seen a poorly bled system cause clutch slippage.The forklift mentioned previously had been damaged in a transport accident (
fell off a semi and rolled down embankment near Indianapolis) and the bellhousing broke along with the engine brackets, severe damages under the floorboards.
The truck was enroute to the factory where I worked and it was three days late arriving because of the repairs. It seems they rushed the fixes to keep from losing a contract.
-- Budd Cochran
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will
bearing.
bearing.
thus
slave
all
the
clutch
to
clutch
and
are
system
of
the
during
this
design
such
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. . <inline> ====================marshmonster wrote in message:
That's not possible. the clutch WILL NOT apply under any scenario resulting from an improperly bled system.
~:~ MarshMosnter ~:~
Try reading what Budd said. He mentioned nothing about the clutch. Simply said that an improperly bled system could result in faster than normal throwout bearing wear. That is not only possible, its probable.
========================== snipped-for-privacy@nc.rr.com (TBone) wrote:
I am not sure that this is exactly what Budd either said or meant but if YOU actually believe this Max, prove it because in reality, you are dead wrong. There is no way in hell that an improperly bled system could cause excessive wear to the bearing but it is highly probable to cause excessive wear to the clutch. I don't claim to be a hydraulics expert but there are some simple facts that seem to be completely distorted.
First of all, gas, liquid and solids ALL expand to some degree when heated with the difference being that liquids and solids apply EXTREME pressure when any expansion occurs and gasses do not unless the expansion is significant. The reason why there is a slight gap required in a mechanical clutch linkage is due to the possible expansion of the mechanical parts partially engaging the clutch and causing excessive wear and slippage to the clutch, not the bearing. The return spring serves to stop the linkage from rattling when in full release due to the required gap as much as anything else. As for gravity, the weight of the fluid is so insignificant in a 3/16 line that I doubt that it could supply enough force to even move the clutch slave cylinder at all, never mind move it with enough force to cause excessive wear on the bearing.
Air in the system will also not cause the slave cylinder to move because if it expands, all it will do is push the fluid back into the master cylinder reservoir as at full release, the ports between the master cylinder and the reservoir are open, pretty much just like the brake master cylinder. It does however, have the ability to cause excessive clutch wear because it could prevent the clutch slave cylinder from moving enough to fully disengage the clutch when required due to its compressibility.
As for the bearing wear, I would think that it goes through as much wear sitting at a single traffic light while holding the clutch in as it does with a year of wear with the light to non-existent pressure being placed on it during normal driving when the clutch is fully engaged. It sounds like the OP simply has a bad bearing, possibly contaminated with dirt during assembly causing excessive wear and premature failure.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
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. . <inline> ======= ======= snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote in message:
<snip>
However,         an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal.
--
Budd Cochran
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Not a hydraulics expert, are you?
-- Budd Cochran
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(Budd Cochran) wrote in message:
<snip>
However, an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal.
-- Budd Cochran ================================ That's not possible.
the clutch WILL NOT apply under any scenario resulting from an improperly bled system.
Never... Ever...
~:~ MarshMonster
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. . <inline> =========== =========== snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd Cochran) wrote in message:
<snip>
However,         an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal.
--
Budd Cochran
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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(Budd Cochran) wrote:
Not a hydraulics expert, are you? -- Budd Cochran ======================Budd, I haven't claimed to be.
Yeah, you have, by implication and deriding my training.
You however.....have PROVEN you aren't by the posts you've made in this thread.
Yeah, I have, but you aren't able to see it.
I will claim this...... I know this guys hydraulic clutch system a dang site better than you do.
Really? And what was it again that gives you the qualifications?
I will also say this....... I noticed you attempted to attack my ability to provide sound advice by questioning my credentials........instead of giving explanation of your (incorrect) statement that heat could hold pressure on the release bearing.
I gave it, you have trouble with English comprehension.
I'm ready to prove that it can't.... lmao
Yep, read your backwoodsy, drunken fool experiments. Guess what? They prove what I say. Get a metal can with a metal screw on cap, open it and heat it on a stove, then seal it and run cold water over it. Watch it pull the same trick as your IQ.
Any questions?
-- Budd Cochran
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On my last transmission R&R, I thought about it... for about 10 seconds before realizing I was making more work for myself. The driveshafts have to come off anyway, so you're only talking 6 nuts to remove in order to yank the transfer case.

Definately.
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. . snipped-for-privacy@qwest.net (Big Al)
Have a 92 Dodge W250. The throw out bearing is starting to go bad.
(Questions)
1) Has anyone here pulled the transmission and transfer case as a unit?
2) How bad was it?
3) Would it be better to separate them?
Any hints would be appreciated.
Al, Dreading this. I may start going out for quotes.
========= =========
Al, answers to yer questions......
1) I have pulled a hundred or so Mopop standards 4x4s.
2) The first one caused a couple skint knuckles....... the last one was a breeze....(2 days ago)
3) as already stated by others in the thread...... YES....seperate the t-case from the tranny.
hints......???
pay somebody to do it.
You should be able to get the clutch set with pilot, release bearing, and flywheel done for around $600 at a tranny shop. It'll be done usually in one day.....and....... WITH A WARRANTY.......and having the rear seal and topcover resealed at the same time.
Nutt'ns quite a frustrate'n as get'n that big arse assembly all back togeather..... firing it up...... and ....."S C R E E E E E C H"...... someptins not rite...damn......gotta take it back out. (unless you payed someone to do it)
You can likely pick up the complete clutch set for around $125 (give or take) for a high quality set. You need to figure in t-case fluid and tranny lube....bout another $20. Add for rear seal and t-case gasket...bout another $13. Add on for a can of brake cleaner.... don't wanna stick an oilly flywheel back on with a new clutch disk......bout $2. Add for having the flywheel machined.....don't wanna have no clutch shudders.....bout $35. Add for an engine oil filter and a quart of motor oil......bout another $8.
so....not including "Go-Jo", and if you don't use more than one can of brake cleaner, and if you don't use silicone sealand on the top cover, an if you don't drop it on yer chest and have to run on down to the emergency room for an x-ray........and you already got grease for lubing everything back up..... and you don't spend too much on beer fer that buddy that's GOING TO HAVE TO help you......
if figure if you do it yerself......... AND DO IT RITE...... you should get out for around...$215 after tax.....
unless of course.....something went wrong and you have to pull it back out...... on yer back.......... with a tippsy floor jack.... (you do got a floor jack....don't yuh?) (how bout yer buddy...he got one?)
Worst Case Scenerios.... (1) The case halves could leak fluid after you bolt the t-case back on....(because you listened to a good buddy and used silicone sealer instead of a gasket...like i told you to).
(2) You end up with a gag-awfull shudder because the flywheel looked good "To You"....so you you scrimped and didn't have it machined.
3) You get a growl or swak sound when letting of the clutch when the trannies in gear..... bcause you boogered up the pilot bushing when you installed it.
4) The pedal goes to the floor.....and no amount of pumping it gets the tranny to shift without grinding..... (do a repost if this happens...we're in to deep to quit now)
5) You crack the bellhousing putting the tranny back in when you tighten down on the bolts because you tried to "pull" it up that last 1/2 inch or so.
6) No ones around........ when the tranny falls off the jack on yer arm.
7) You get it out.......... but screw that........ you're gonna eat crow and call somebody to put it back in ....... cuz you show ain't gonna even try to do it on yer back.....whewww....that tangs heavy. ($300 with the tow bill)
Suggestion..... if you do decide to do the job, it's not rocket science....it's common sense. Jest set aside one full day for the job...tell yourself your not stopping till your finished and don't mess around with it....."git'r done". On the ground, with a floor jack, with a buddy, you should be able to do the entire job in less than 4 hours if you buy everything ahead of time....that includes letting yer buddy run down to the machine shop and waiting on the flywheel, while you're changing the rear t-case seal, pilot bushing, sanding the input shaft, putting a light coat of grease on the pilot shaft, the inner collar of the release bearing, and putting a VERY light coat on the inner collar of the clutch disc and on the release prongs on the preasure plate. Sand the rust off the "dowl pins" that are sticking out the back of the engine block, they're for lining up the bellhousing. Thick arse coat of grease on these...and their mating holes in the bellhousing. Not doing this "may" cause probs sliding the unit back in. Use a bronze pilot bushing....NOT a pilot bearing...unless the bearing type is all you can find. Bronze bushings hold up better than the bearing type.....and are less likely to get boogered up when you pound them in. When using that plastic "line-up" tool that comes in the clutch kit, hold up on it SLIGHTLY while you tighten down the preasure plate. Those things ain't precision and this will save you bout 30 minutes of cussing when you go to stab the tranny back in. MAKE SURE......the bellhousing is FLUSH with the engine when you tighten up the bell-housing bolts....DO NOT try to pull the tranny forward with the bolts.......EVER... NEVER....EVER........unless you have to, then be dang show you inch it forward and if it ain't moving...stop trying and figure out whats up. (maybe yer fergits to grease the dowl pins)
Taking it Out....
take the shifter out of the transmission.... remove the trim on the floorboard, inside the cab, to get at it.
drain the t-case
drain the tranny
remove the engine oil filter
remove the bellhousing bolt that wouldn't come out with the oil filter on.
remove the starter, and the threaded stud that the bottom starter nut goes on.
remove the bellhousing bolt that was hidden above the starter
remove the two tranny mount bolts and jack the tranny up so that the tranny isn't sitting it's weight down on the crossmember.
Take the crossmember bolts out .....beat, pry, bang, and take the crossmember out.
It's pretty much common sense from there....
if you get a bolt that won't turn...whack it with hammer and a punch. whack it...not tap it... not bump it....whack it. (keep this in mind on the driveshaft bolts if they give you a prob)
and.....if you don't have access to a floor jack (which is tricky as she-ite)...then do a repost and I'll walk you through the milk crate method....
one more thing..... if you do it this saturday...... drag yer PC out under the truck with you.....
and if that tranny falls on yer arm.....
and yer buddy didn't show up like he promised.......
and no one comes when you start scream'n.....
do a repost and i'll quickly explain how to an emergency amputation using a flat head screwdriver and a pair of wire cutters....
~:~ MarshMonster ~walks under the lift.....and goes back to work~
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. . one more thing..... if you do it this saturday...... drag yer PC out under the truck with you.....
and if that tranny falls on yer arm.....
and yer buddy didn't show up like he promised.......
and no one comes when you start scream'n.....
Reminds me of something that happened many years ago. My friend had a Hemi Coronet and the clutch disk split. So I was under the car removing the transmission. Had everything loose but it would not budge, so I was under the transmission pulling on the tail shaft and rocking it up and down. The transmission jumped off the bell housing and fell right on my chest. The car was not up very high and I could not get out from under the transmission and I could not roll it off me. While I was suffocating somehow I got free. My chest was sore for a month. That was my first MOPAR 4 speed extraction. Before that most of what I worked on were Chevy's and they had toy 4 speeds. Much later I pulled the transmission out of a 76 Volare, super six with the overdrive transmission. One look at that thing reminded me of the Hemi. Drilled four holes in the swivel plate on my floor jack and made an angle iron frame to hold the transmission. It was no problem at all.
Al
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wrote:

You want to remove a cast iron Powerglide laying on your back - NOT. I was a skinny 16 year old and the tranny weighed more than I did.
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-------SNIP-------

PowerGlide! Try a 49 Olds or Caddy Hydromatic. Weigh more than both of us.
Al
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. . ================ Al, answers to yer questions......
1) I have pulled a hundred or so Mopop standards 4x4s.
2) The first one caused a couple skint knuckles....... the last one was a breeze....(2 days ago)
3) as already stated by others in the thread...... YES....seperate the t-case from the tranny.
(2) You end up with a gag-awfull shudder because the flywheel looked good "To You"....so you you scrimped and didn't have it machined.
Very good description of all the work required, Marshy. I am just a bit curious about the need to have the flywheel resurfaced each time. My reason for this is that I used to have a '74 Ford 3/4 ton with an NP435? 4 speed in it. The first time I had to change the clutch, which was shortly after I bought it with 115k on it, I found the flywheel had deep grooves in it from the previous owner wearing the clutch down to the rivets. I didn't bother having the flywheel resurfaced. (young, no money, didn't care.) I had no shudder from the clutch due to the worn flywheel surface. Over the years, I did experience a couple of occasions when the clutch would shudder, but each time on disassembly I found it was because a couple of springs on the clutch plate itself had broken. I beat the hell out of that truck, too. I would put a choker around a log in a log deck, hook it to the ball on the hitch, put the truck in granny and give 'er the gas. Sometimes the back end of the truck would get jerked 3 feet to the side trying to get that log out. I have no doubt that this is what would damage the clutch plate. In each instance of shudder, I found the clutch plate itself had a couple of broken springs, but the plate itself had very little wear on it. I put another 135,000 hard miles in 16 years on that truck before I bought my '03 Dodge. And the last time I changed the clutch on it, the grooves on the flywheel had smoothed out to just light waves on the surface, and there was no shudder. Have things changed so much that a new surface on the flywheel is critical to smooth operation of the clutch? I can understand how a glazed surface would contribute to clutch slippage, although that old flywheel had almost a mirror sheen and was still just fine. :) HD
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. .
<inline> ========= ========= Marsh Monster wrote in message:
<snip>
(2) You end up with a gag-awfull shudder because the flywheel looked good "To You"....so you you scrimped and didn't have it machined. ========== ========== snipped-for-privacy@juno.com (HoDad) wrote:
(Edited)
Very good description of all the work required, Marshy.
I am just a bit curious about the need to have the flywheel resurfaced each time.
My reason for this is that I used to have a '74 Ford 3/4............
<snip>
...... the flywheel had deep grooves in it from the previous owner wearing the clutch down to the rivets. I didn't bother having the flywheel resurfaced. (young, no money, didn't care.)
  I had no shudder from the clutch due to the worn flywheel surface.
Over the years, I did experience a couple of occasions when the clutch would shudder, but each time on disassembly I found it was because a couple of springs on the clutch plate itself had broken.
<snip>
Have things changed so much that a new surface on the flywheel is critical to smooth operation of the clutch?
I can understand how a glazed surface would contribute to clutch slippage, although that old flywheel had almost a mirror sheen and was still just fine. :)
HD ============== ============== (marshmonster) replies:
HoDad, No...... things ain't changed so much.
AND....... I don't have EVERY flywheel machined either. AND...... you're not actually supposed to machine one if it doesn't need it.
But...... he's working on his back, on the ground, without the benefit of an industrial compressor, a $325 impact gun, a $300 air ratchet, a top set of acetelene torches, and....... A LIFT !!!!
And...... I'm a perty good judge of when it needs machining or not.......this is liable to be the first flywheel he's ever had to make that call on! Would be a dang shame to tell him to not worry bout it if looked ok..... then him see some "heat checking" on an otherwise "smooth" flywheel and figure it was okee dokee. When in fact he's be flipping a coin on that call. He's jest better off doing it......don't want him come'n back cus'n ole Marsh cuz he got BAD ADVICE.....some of which has been posted in this thread.
I can roundtrip that unit in an hour!!
He ain't gonna wanna touch again after fighting it the first time!! rotflmao
so......
if......
HE.....thinks it's ok not to machine it, and HE believes the time it takes HIM to get it back out and back in again.......which i figure is going to be a day and a half....lol.....then by all means...save the $35 and take the risk.
I do all the time. But.....like i said.....i'm a weeeee bit quicker at it than he is....and...there IS the slightest possibility that maybe,,jest maybee....I"m a perty balls on judge of when one needs machining. I don't take the CHANCE.... because, like I stated, you're NOT supposed to machine one if it don't need it. No need to charge a customer for a flywheel if he don't need one......the more you machine it, the sooner the customers going to run the risk of HAVING to buy one. Especially if they're going through a lot of clutch's..for whatever reason. (kids...overloading...yanki'n buddies out of mud holes...etc..etc)
(In Summary)
1) No....clutch's ain't changed so much over the years.
2) No...it's not an absolute that the flywheel has to be machined on a clutch job.
3) Normal proceedure calls for NOT refinishing if it's not neccessary.
4) I'm not gonna tell some poor slob that's yank'n a 4x4 tranny out on his back, without any experience, and without the benefits of the tools that would make it a piece of cake..... to take a chance just to save 35 bucks.
hopefully yer interests were addressed MarshMonster ~:~
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<snip> ==========================(marshmonster) replies:
HoDad, No...... things ain't changed so much.
AND....... I don't have EVERY flywheel machined either. AND...... you're not actually supposed to machine one if it doesn't need it.
But...... he's working on his back, on the ground, without the benefit of an industrial compressor, a $325 impact gun, a $300 air ratchet, a top set of acetelene torches, and....... A LIFT !!!!
And...... I'm a perty good judge of when it needs machining or not.......this is liable to be the first flywheel he's ever had to make that call on! Would be a dang shame to tell him to not worry bout it if looked ok..... then him see some "heat checking" on an otherwise "smooth" flywheel and figure it was okee dokee. When in fact he's be flipping a coin on that call. He's jest better off doing it......don't want him come'n back cus'n ole Marsh cuz he got BAD ADVICE.....some of which has been posted in this thread.
I can roundtrip that unit in an hour!!
He ain't gonna wanna touch again after fighting it the first time!! rotflmao
so......
if......
HE.....thinks it's ok not to machine it, and HE believes the time it takes HIM to get it back out and back in again.......which i figure is going to be a day and a half....lol.....then by all means...save the $35 and take the risk.
I do all the time. But.....like i said.....i'm a weeeee bit quicker at it than he is....and...there IS the slightest possibility that maybe,,jest maybee....I"m a perty balls on judge of when one needs machining. I don't take the CHANCE.... because, like I stated, you're NOT supposed to machine one if it don't need it. No need to charge a customer for a flywheel if he don't need one......the more you machine it, the sooner the customers going to run the risk of HAVING to buy one. Especially if they're going through a lot of clutch's..for whatever reason. (kids...overloading...yanki'n buddies out of mud holes...etc..etc)
(In Summary)
1) No....clutch's ain't changed so much over the years.
2) No...it's not an absolute that the flywheel has to be machined on a clutch job.
3) Normal proceedure calls for NOT refinishing if it's not neccessary.
4) I'm not gonna tell some poor slob that's yank'n a 4x4 tranny out on his back, without any experience, and without the benefits of the tools that would make it a piece of cake..... to take a chance just to save 35 bucks.
hopefully yer interests were addressed MarshMonster ~:~
Good enough for me. Appreciate your reply. Looks like you kind of understand clutches. :) Wanna finish bleeding the air out of my wives '99 Accord clutch? What a pain in the ass when you don't have the proper tools! Love Hondas. Hate working on them. HD
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Marsh Monster wrote:

How about reading hiw message through, mentioning about having a four post lift?
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Drain all the fluid, start the engine and floor the gas. Pop the transmission into reverse. It should fall out all by itself.
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My bad. I did not read your question correctly. I thought it was an automatic and you just wanted to remove it. I don't know about standards. I would guess you take them out one way and put them back just the opposite way.
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. . Diagnosing and Servicing Hydraulic Clutch
Address:http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf70238.htm
Though not a complete resource for proof or theory......it still manages to negate almost EVERY SINGLE statement that Budd made in this thread about how he "thinks" the system works.
~;~ MarshMonster ~will gladly go back to his files for other resources~
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