US Auto makers may become extinct, caused by Unions

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There has to be give and take by both parties.

Received about 12-20 inches this past weekend, depends where you are in 15 mile circle. Was over 50 degrees today. Supposed to be 10 above this Saturday. A very strange winter to say the least.
Roy
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Roy wrote:

Teachers union still exists.
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Teacher's are one place that a union is needed. Or were they the union that was involved with your family? <G>
Seriously what union was?
Roy
Roy
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Roy wrote:

Teachers unions create tenure which is horrible. It makes the school system keep lousy teachers. I agree that teachers are not paid enough. But what the teachers unions have done over the decades is create an education system that puts the needs of teachers way above that of the education of our kids. Whats needed is to get rid of lousy teachers and pay the great ones so they'll stay teaching. The unions do nothing of the sort.
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Miles, please read what you are writing. The union created, the union did this the union did that. Again, the union or local negotiates with, in this case the school dept. They both AGREE to whatever is in the contract. Regards tenure. Tenure around here is not reached until 3-5 years. During that time the school admistrators evaluate the teacher. A tenured teacher can be let ago as well. The procedure is longer.

Agreed
Here you are again, the union. Miles, you are obsessed. There are two parties to any negotiations. Doesn't the other party have any responsability for the outcome of the negotiations or what is agreed to? It would seem that you want it all one way, your's.
Now what union was it that was involved with your family??
Roy
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Roy wrote:

I repeat. Tenure is a BAD thing. There is zero need for it and it does not benifit the education system. Good teachers are kept and paid well, poor teachers are canned regardless of how many years on the job. A teaching job should be just like any other job where there is no such thing as tenure. You think negotiation is possible on this issue? BULL. The union is too strong to allow it.

Tell me Roy, how would say my state here in AZ negotiate to end tenure for teachers? You really think thats possible? No way. The teachers union would NEVER agree to it. You are obsessed with the notion that both sides are equally balanced in leverage against each other when negotiating. They are most certainly not.
How is it that in these negotiations they continually retain tenure and not just in a few states but nationwide? Tell me Roy, how could a single city, county or school district have the power to negotiate away tenure against a national union? The balance is simply not there as you are obsessed into believing.

SMWIA (Employee union) and SMACNA (Corporate Union that uses SMWIA workers).
Now tell me why does it matter to you which union?
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Miles I am convinced that neither you or I will ever change our thoughts about unions and the rights of workers. The thread has become pointless imho. Time to move on

It didn't. I was just wondering. Is that the Sheet Metal Workers Intl. Assoc. Or the service employees?
Roy
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Roy wrote:

Probably true. When you own your own company and have invested and risked everything you own into it then we'll talk more!

Sheet metal workers. Company is commercial A/C contracting.
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honestly miles, you need to get involved with your local school district. that is as untrue as anything that has been said here. as i said before, that is a lie. it is management that keeps bad teachers. tenure is not an unfair concept. it has benefits for an effective work force too. contracts do not say that tenured teachers can not be disciplined. in fact, tenure is not a discipline issue. show me a contract that says differently. you will not find one. tenure has no part in the discipline process with the one exception of probationary employees (usually probation is 6 months to 18 months, depending on the district) as probationary employees can be fired without cause in most contracts. but that is not tenure. how in the world are you getting tenure wound up in discipline and getting rid of bad teachers?
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theguy wrote:

So why should teachers be treated differently than any other job? Why do they need tenure yet pretty much nobody else in other jobs do? Tenure is a horrible concept that does not benifit our education system. It does nothing to provide the best work force possible. Quite the opposite. Sorry but you are wrong in your belief that tenure has zero effect on the ability for management to get rid of bad teachers.
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Roy wrote:

Sure thats true. There are poorly managed corporations. I have said repeatedly that unions are needed in some cases where a natural market balance is not present for whatever reasons. In the majority of work sectors unions are simply not needed and have a negative benifit to society as a whole.
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wrote:

well said
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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99% of the time it is not the union that busts up a company, it is almost always either poor planning by the highly paid management or a change in the times. Of course, it appears that the management responsible for the planning or predicting these changing times never seem to want to take the life influencing pay cuts that they try to impose on the workers.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

If thats the case then you have nothing to whine about when those companies move overseas. Just changing times. Trouble is, the union doesn't seem to flex per those changing times...which does lead to companies being forced to move.
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Like I said before Miles, I don't see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the USA. Sorry Miles, many of these companies just use the workers wanting to make a wage they can actually live on as an excuse to leave without the bad rep. Much easier to pass the blame or use the term "global market". Many of these companies have left the US on claimed losses while they were still highly profitable. They based their losses on "expected growth" that they didn't achieve, IOW, fuzzy math and most people fall for this BS. Even if the unions gave in to all these claims, these companies would leave anyway because there is no way for the American worker to take enough cuts to compete with the pay in the 2nd and 3rd world economies or for this country to back off on the costly ecological restrictions that many of theses countries simply ignore. If they are going to go anyway, let them go now and hopefully the American people will put a stop to it and buy no products from these companies and be willing to perhaps pay a little more for products made in the USA but it will take a while since most Americans need that 100,000 MPH kick in the balls to wake up and do the right thing, sometimes. Perhaps when enough jobs are lost we will wake up but sometimes I wonder.....
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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TBone wrote:

Why is it always the corporations fault? It works both ways. What you seem to forget is the main purpose a company is in business for. You seem to go the social extremes and wish that companies were all just non-profit social welfare providers. Fact is a corporation is started to make money. If a union gets to powerfull and makes it difficult to compete in a global market then they move elsewhere. You can cry all you want, whine about how bad they are but tough...they're gone and what are you doing about it other than whine? What are you willing to do to keep the companies here?
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I think I just figured it out, Miles. . . .
On Star Trek, a science fiction FANTASY program, no one works to make a profit / income, they work because they want to. All your sustenance, lodging and clothing comes from somewhere, probably a governmental agency, and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity.
And Tom thinks that's the way it should be . . . . .
--
Budd Cochran

"miles" < snipped-for-privacy@nopers.com> wrote in message
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On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:39:29 -0700, "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom SPAM.net> wrote:

that's a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesn't fit yoou well, you use stupid analogies.
you also don't do miles any justice. he, at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs.
i don't agreee with miles, but i repect the guy. after all, we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse.
you, on the other hand, as i recall, are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didn't help them. at least, that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah, that and that unions are dinosaurs. i'm still trying to figure that one out.
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theguy wrote:

I have worked from both sides and therefore see both sides of the fence. Most have not done so. When it is your own time and life invested into a company of your own then and only then can you understand the other side. Otherwise workers think everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy and don't deserve what they have. I know better than that.
Didn't have financial problems. The unions certainly did try to run us out using strong arm tactics but they failed. The little guy won and the non-union employess benifited from fighting back against the unions.
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No, you only see your side.

Yawn, more complete crap. Stop trying to blend the corporate world with the independant small business owner to support your weak arguments. Most of these corporate execs are just hired guns and have little concern about the company other than their paycheck and possible reputation. If these companies fold, big deal, they will just float to the next on on their golden parachute.

That is because in many cases they don't. They take what they want because they can, nothing more and the ones underneath them are the ones that in many cases have to bust their rumps and give things up so they can.

Na, you are just blinded by your own narrow minded greed. The thing is Miles, it's people like you that give capitalism a really bad name.

How exactly did they benefit Miles? Does your family pay union rates and supply the same level of health care as the union shops? If not, then only ones that benefited were the owners (your family).
--
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