Hi All at aacf: This may be a bit off topic..............
My son just picked up a Holley four barrel from a friend for $30.00. Not a bad deal as it looks in pretty good shape. However, he is wanting to put it on his 1978 F150, 400cid, auto, 4x4 that has (I presume) a factory 2-barrel. That means a manifold swap....or does it? In the meantime, where can I find the model number on the carb so as to know what size it is (may need to get a rebuild kit to replace dried out parts)?
an adapter is available, but personally I wouldn't go that route. check jeg's or summit for aftermarket manifolds.
the carb should have a list # stamped on the housing of the primary barrels (uppermost part of carb) I can double-check this tomorrow at work, but I am almost certain you will find it there. the # will have to be cross-referenced to find the size
That's a 400 Modified. On the cheep you can get a 4bbl (barrel) intake from a salvage yard. $30 for a Holley isn't bad at all. I usually pay around $50 to $100 for units needing rebuilt. The list number will tell you what model it is. The other longer number will tell you what years it was made between, flow, and if it was used in a factory application. There should also be a 3 digit Julian date code on it. This will give you the rough date of manufacture. These numbers should be on the choke housing.
Some Holley cores are worth allot. Enough in some cases to sell it and buy a new one. as for rebuild kits, every one from advanced auto parts to Jegs sells them for Holley's. Charles
Charles: Thanks for the help! List # is 6853 with 2859 below it.
Couldn't find a 3 digit Julian date. But, I did find a couple concentric circles (one outside a venturi and the other on the mounting plate) with 89 molded within the inner circle. It appears as though, between the two circles which are divided like a clock, that there are marks stamped there. Two near the one o'clock and one near the three o'clock. Mean anything?
My son will begin checking the bone yards in the next few days for an intake manifold.
BTW: I posted my request on alt.trucks.ford and have yet to get a response.
The list numbers come up as : 6853 0 4165 Competition replacement for all Quadra-Jet carbs. on 1965-70327, 350, 402 C.I.D. engs. Mechanical secondaries, spread bore,double pump, 650 c.f.m., non emission, divorced choke.
4165 is the model line of holley. Being a spread bore you will need an addapter to make it work on a Ford intake. 650 CFM is about right for a form 400M. Charles
The list # is the "tag" # you want to reference service parts.
No need to spend the money on a Holley kit really as they do not make their own :) They are done by an outside company. Get a good stock rebuilding kit for it and it will be fine.
On the whole, Ford (Motorcraft) and Holley carburetion is bottom barrel and lackluster compared to a Rochester Q-jet. However, a stock Motorcraft 4 barrel is the way I would go on this application. Should be able to virtually trip over them.
On vehicles like this, it was clear that GM was light years ahead of Ford back then. FOMOCO engine management was crap compared to what GM had going on back then... Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car...
There are Holley Brand rebiuld kits and upgrade kits. I either get Holley brand or BG brand parts for them. see:
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Holley's are Top Line Carburators. Q-Junks are worthless. The only good RP's are 2BBL 2GC's & 2GV's. Other then there they have some spiffy fuel injection set ups. Ever notice most older GM Hi-Po applications had Holley's from the factory? Like Big Blocks with 780 CFM Holley 4150 line carbs?
Here is how you repair Q-junk problems. Remove all wires, lines and hoses. Remove 4 bolts. Set in either core pile or in scrap pile. Bolt on Holley. Problems solved.
As for Motorcraft 4BBl's, you will not trip over them. The majority of later 70's light duty trucks and cars were 2bbl. They might trip over cores that need a rebuild.
Each maker has there strong points. Some vehicals from both are excelent, others are pure crap.
Why are you jumping on Joe about quadrajets? Joe knows a lot about what the various lines produced over the years. He helped me with installing a 75 tilt column in a 76 T/A. Sounds easy but it was a royal PITA till Joe helped me out. You've been gone a long time but I still remember you and Nick and how you turned on Nick when he went to a Miata. Did you really have to chase him down on Usenet to let us know what he had to say about f-bodies after he bought the Miata? I'm just not in the mood to see what I consider a valuable resource trashed in this group when your shining moment was talking about getting topless pit crews at the national f-body event.
As far as quadrajets go, I've helped people hit the low twelves in daily drivers with quadrajets. The problem with most people is they can't understand how a carburetor works. Not everyone needs a 950 HP and many of them want to keep the car as stock as possible for either shows or running in the stock class drags that are really taking off with increasing payouts every year. I've got over 40 qjets in the garage; I run a qjet on the vette but a Holley on the T/A. I run the Holley so I don't have to install an electric fuel pump on the poncho but I build qjets for the stocker/resto guys and I've yet to have a single complaint yet from anyone as far a gas mileage or performance.
As far as which carb is better, it all depends on what the owner wants to do with the car. Want to win 1st place in the car show and still whoop some ass at the track, a quadrajet can do it IF you know how to work on them. They just seem to be too complex for the average guy, I hear it all the time. Idle circuits, jetting, air valve tuning, fuel capacity. It's easy to turn a qjet into a true mechanical secondary carb but you better be able to keep traction when that 550 cfm hits.
BTW, IMHO, the spreadbore Holleys are POS carbs. The 4150s are the starting point for a good Holley
You assume I am jumping him, or doubting he knows anything. You assume Wrong. Especially when it comes to used Ford factory 4 barrel carbs for
351-400 Modified engine family. I have done the salvage yard thing at 3 yards. Recommending someone bolt on a used carb that has sat for years is a no-no. I had way too mant of them returned because they needed a full rebuild.
Hmm... I chased Nick off? I think your wrong there. If so then why did Nick call me asking about some parts about 6 months after that? Nick got a F-body expecting it to have Lexus percision & F-50 moves. To quote him "It was'nt refined enough". So he gets him self a Miati and proceeds to trash on F-bodies and say how much better his new ride is. I have met Nick in person, have you?
And what is this about a Topless pitcrew and F-body nationals? The only F-body event I went to was the one Nick put on in Kansus he called M.E.N.D. (Meet, Eat, aNd, Drag). Where I drove his 97 T/A down the 1/4 mile in what was my worst run ever. I had zero seat time in the car before, and it had a very touchy shifter. Becuase of this way bad run (the last run for the day at M.I.D. America drag ways). I was bashed and bashed and doubted. Now who ran who off?
You really want to know my shinning moment? Tough, that's far too personial to share on here.
My self I can rebuild them just fine. I dislike rebuilding carbs. Just like I hate fixing a basket case someone else lost half of. Call me lazy. I haven't even rebuilt the Q-junk on my truck, and it needs it. Since Im going to R&R the engine with a higher displacment one I have, Im just going to wait till then and put a Holley on it. Which I have to rebuild. But that's quick and simple to do.
I Highly Dislike Q-junks. Always have Always will. Doesn't matter to me if it's street, strip, or off road. The only Q-junk products I like are their 2 BBL carbs. Which work best for demolition derbies. In 2002 My friends ran 3 cars at D.E.N.T. (a semi-national event). All 3 powered by SBC's all three with 2GV's on them. 2 out of three made the finals. The other guy was hurt too badly. Getting 3 cars ready from drivers in a month and a half was close to a shinning moment, but not quite.
Square bore is optimum. But at times you have a spread bore intake, and that's what the customer wants. So you give them what they want. Then if the come back bitching you just say, "I told you so". Then if they want to lay out the green to go the better way, cool. If not, So be it. I long ago gave up trying to convince them they were wrong.
Okay you got me there, it sounds like I was wrong.
My memory must be getting bad but then again, I only emailed Nick about it a few times. I do remember this post though, things were getting a little heated by then:
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You don't rmember the topless pitcrew thing? I have to apologize for my wording then, I thought you would remember that part. I should have said "your shining moment in my memory of aacf".
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I thought it was pretty funny.
You're right, it wasn't the NFME. IIRC, Nick's registration got bounced due his email account so he put the MEND event together
Not lazy, it's the easiest thing to do. The qjets I build these days are for people who want to keep the original carb on their car for whatever reason (like an original cowl induction setup or a T/A shaker). Gettiing a qjet to work with long duration cams with high lift is the hardest part since it involves modifying the idle circuits.
Sounds like you run into the same kind of people that I do. They expect a spreadbore Holley to add 50 hp over a quadrajet with no other changes. If someone wants some advice, I'll try to help but it isn't always appreciated. ;^)
You would laugh at what I work out of but I'm lucky to have free access to two repair type shops and one performance engine shop just down the street. But for carb work, everything I need fits in a fairly small box (except for the drill press).
And to think, all I was asking for was a little help and information. You guys are funnier than a barrel of monkeys!!!! I, personally, prefer a Holley over Rochester, but I'm not going to join in on this fracas. See you at the next subject.....................when something on my T/A needs attention. And a big THANKS for the much needed information.
Heated is putting it Mildly. The old posts speak for them self's as to what was said in 97.
Nope I didn't remember it. I have a hard enough time remembering where I left my cell phone in the morning. I think my part about the "topless pitcrew" came from my stripper friends who I did allot of car work for. If anything it was something of jest.
I don't remember too much of what lead up to MEND. I do remember some of us checking in to tracks that would host it. Heck I can't remember all the people who were there. I still have some photos from it.
stocker/resto
We will do that as well. Usually I let my business partner handle those, at his other shop. He already has most of the parts there, plus the right finshes.
Easy... Lazy... about the same. Im Lazy like that with my personal rides. Unless Im totally rebuilding one. .
appreciated.
I get all sorts. The majority of them expect a 50 HP gain if I just change the spark plugs & oil. Allot of them think they can provide me better parts then If I get them my self. They don't understand the concept of tax I.D. + account at parts store = Discount. I even have one customer who expects miracles. Like an engine to be rebuilt in 2 weeks when I am only charging $400 to R&R as well a rebuild. I really miss some of my deep pocket customers that I lost when I was layed up with a gimp ankle.
My shop is not any thing special. Just a pole barn that's 40 by 80, with an office & a rest room. It's jam packed with parts, tools, & equipment. With a 9000 pound capacity ALM lift in the center of the shop (for beam clearance), and room to work on 3 cars with one on the lift, one under the lift, and one in front of it. Hopefully soon I will either be moving to a larger place, or getting pallet racking. Outdoors it's looks like a salvage yard with Project, Parts, Event, & Future Race Cars sitting around (over
200). The building has 2 car doors, one per end. Next to each is a Scrap & Junk pile. Around the back side you will find a pile of rear ends, equipment, cores, and junk. It's not much, but it's better then nothing. Charles
As I said previously, Holley DOES NOT make their own rebuilding kits. They are done by an outside company and Holley puts their name on it. Shit, Holley doesn't even do their own carburetor catalog anymore, someone else does it for them. It's obvious if you've seen one of their recent catalogs or looked at some samples of their kits as I have done recently.
Again, it has been proven time and time again that there is no substitute for Q-jet reliability, streetability, or fuel economy.
Most folks misunderstand a Q-jet and henc ecall it junk. That is plain ignorance on their part and nothing more. EVERY domestic car maker (including Ford and Chrysler) bought the Q-jet for use on their engines.
And yes, Ford used it on their hipo 429 engine a year or two as well. Chrysler used it on 318 and 360 engines through 1989 according to their OEM parts literature.
No, I don't work the counter. I work on the technical/manufacturer side. I teach the counterpeople/salesfolk/customers a thing or two :).
Your other comment about taking a used carburetor and putting it back into service being a risk or bad news is not true. If you pick a piece of crap that's been sitting with water in it and no air filter, then sure. If you pick a "recent arrival" or you pick one where the hood has been on the vehicle and you take the time and go through it, you will have one stellar carburetor when you are done.
As for GM being light years ahead of the other guys back in the day---just look at their market share back then. The others couldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Most of the GM's of that vintage that had Holleys were simply due to marketing. It's the same reason why the HURST name was put back on the shifters after a year or two hiatus back in the 60's. The customer could care less what brand was there, so thought GM corporate. After some complaining to management, they put it back. Only because the brand name had recognition.
As Nunzi Romano of Pontiac fame said back in the carburetor heyday: "Rochester doesn't have to advertise. They sell 5 million carburetors a year"
How true. Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car...
GM does not make all of it's own parts either. I currently have a 1991 Vender to GM cross reference book for medium duty trucks. I say currently since it's I have it listed on eBay.
I know Holley a few years back and some other companies merged, or were bought out by someone. I do not know the details of that. The last one I rebuilt I did use a kit I got at the swap meet. It was older yet still good. Ill look next time Im at Jegs (1 hour drive) in to who makes the Holley rebuild kits.
As to their catalog, I don't have one. I have a Jegs catalog & a summit catalog. Other then that I have a stack of restoration & tool catalogs.
All three GM, Ford & Chrysler also used Holley's. Some Chrysler FWD's have Holley throttle bodies & TBI's.
I can rebuild a Q-junk rather well. I just do not like them. Is it ignorance to say "I don't like XYZ yet like ZYXX"? Not to mention I haven't ever heard of RP giving contingency money. Nor do I see them selling upgrade kits for them.
Im sure you have worked on the Q-junk's I hate the most. The mid 80's Computer Controlled carbs. The majority of these I have to put a the stock units back on. Due to emissions regulations. They consider the removal of the computer controls to be "Tampering".
That's cool. Mind if I send you all the AutoZone employee's in the country? You might find 100 to 300 that have the ability to learn.
Your key words there: "take your time and go through it" The majority of people who buy used carbs do not do that. They expect to bolt them on, hook up the vacuum & fuel lines, connect the linkage, and any wires.. Then they expect them to function as well as a rebuilt unit.
You should know this term: Core. That being a part that needs to either be gone thru, rebuilt, or remanufactured.
I will sell a fresh carb off of a running engine with no reserves. If the car has sat your years, or if it is a possibility, or the engine was dead and may have sat for a while. I will only sell it as a core. That means a much lower price, and I will tell them it either needs to be gone thru or rebuilt. Cores do not carry a return on them. If you buy a core from me for $5, the only thing other then $5 you have to lose is your time, and a rebuild kit.
If you break that down buy brand name and model line the numbers become a bit more clear. Ford had some good sellers in the 60's and the 70's.
Allot of people install Hurst shifters in their GM cars when they purchased them. Sort of like the short throw shifters people install in 4th gen F-bodies. Correct me if Im wrong, wasn't it so popular that GM offer it as an option in some years of 4th gen production?
I also happen to like hurst shifters. Im not talking about the shifter arm, Im talking about the shifter on the transmission. I had a nice on on a Super T-10 in a 80 firebird that had a 305 chevy from the factory. It was a nice car that got plowed by an elderly driver when parked on the street. The body was so so, but it drove very well. I scraped the car, sold the rest of the drive line except the Super T-10 with the Hurst shifter. Which is sitting in the office at my shop.
But that logic, Why should A/C spark plugs have to advertise? After all every GM vehicle is sold with them.
AC Delco advertises because it is the marketing arm for aftermarket GM parts. The spark plugs are made by Delphi which is not part of GM.
AC Delco doesn't make anything (but they did at one time), they are just marketing now.
I think you mean Colt Industries that owned Holley. Again, the Holley gaskets are not Holley. They are from an outside vendor. So was alot of the engineering and kit content decisions (Unlike RPD who did that in house).
As for Medium Duty GM trucks, different ballgame, dude. Med. duty trucks are often spec'd out by customer, fleet or another criteria. That is why you have the vendor cross reference book and why you need it.
Actually, that book is outdated :). If you have an EDS Parts Imager it's all in there. :)
Newsflash: A Holley or Carter is far from "bolt on and run" in any case. Especially if it's a universal performance unit. You're asking that unit to perform duties for say a garden variety 350 or a wild 350. It can't do both (at least not well).
A Rochester Q-jet is specific to what it was designed for. GM didn't need to go outside to design their carburetors---the majority of their machines had their own stuff.
Again, GM sold Rochesters to the other guys. Carter even made Rochesters for a while because they were so popular GM couldn't make them fast enough...
The 17080274 that's on my 1980 Turbo Trans Am is specific for that car. Stick a Holley or Carter on there, and it's not going to be 100%. Because that carburetor is "middle of the road" for all the applications it is cataloged for, but not ideal for any one application. The Rochester IS.
With that being said, that is why you should also rebuild your original so you are sure you are getting the right core. For example, any off the shelf auto parts store will show a rebuilt carb for my 79 400. What you will get in the box is surely not the 17059263 core it came with originally. You will get a
1977 or 1978 400 core which are much more plentiful.
Put that on a 1979 400 and it will never be 100% because there are subtle differences in the three years (that's how GM met emission standards in part).
No need for a Rochester upgrade kit to be sold because upgrading is done during the rebuild and it doesn't take fancy parts to do it with a Rochester. It's procedure and perhaps mixing of some parts (jets from this to that, etc).
Truth is there are about 5 companies in the market that supply all the gaskets you see in ANYONE's kit. :)
Some of the Chryslers you mentioned actually originally used Bosch injectors which were subsequently swapped over to Holley units for cost "savings".
Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car...
I forgot that A/C spark plugs was part of Delphi systems. You do know that Delphi now has to bid on contracts to make parts for GM?
You are correct. Yet A/C Delco branded parts are usually better then what you get at most discount auto parts stores.
Ok so it's done by an outside vendor. Does that make the rebuild kits, or the gasket sets branded with their name any worse then a store brand?
Nope I don't have one, got an extra for sale? It would save time when ordering parts.
I got the vender to GM cross reference in a bulk book purchase at a auction. We have tried to sell it at a few swap meets. Now im taking the stuff that didn't sell there and putting it on eBay. take a look:
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Let me be clear here. I don't just put a holey on a car and send it out the door. Unless Im doing so, just to move it. You still have to dial them in, so to speak. The right jets and settings.
I worked on a 74 Corvette that had one. Im not sure if it was correct for that car or not. Someone had tried to modify it and did not know what they were doing. I replaced it with a rebuilt carb I ordered from a 'Vette parts house. Another Q-junk. It ran fine after that, and the customer was happy. They were not concerned with having it original. They were concerned about proper operations. I did return the old one to them.
That is very true. On collector cars you want all the correct numbers. People tend to forget that's part of a numbers matching car. All the correct part numbers, with the correct date codes. That's how I got my mail ID. Hunting such down for restorers.
Let me guess two of them are Dana, and Fed-Mong?
With Chrysler that does not surprise me in the least. Their 3.0 & 3.3 engines are Mitsubishi made. As well as some of the electronics. The Holley throttle bodies on the 3.0's are good units. Very few ever need replaced. The Holley TBI units do have problems with gaskets leaking. Usually on high mileage cars (2.2/2.5). Often these units have withstood 2 or 3 engine changes.
The 3.3 vin R engine is US Chrysler design. The 3.0 vin 3 engine is Mitsubishi designed. It's easily determined by looking at the service part numbers in a Proquest system/Bell and Howell system. You'll see MB, MD and MR prefixes on most of the 3.0 parts (because they are actually Mitsu part numbers) and "regular" Chrysler type numbers for the 3.3 specific parts. That 3.0 vin 3 engine has always been multiport fuel injected since its inception into the Chrysler line in 1987.
The only throttle body it has is one that meters air, so ya, it will last :).
With that being said, no Dana and Federal Mogul don't stamp out gaskets. They get them from the same vendors. Carter bailed out of the kit market many years ago. Carter kits for content have been someone else's for a number of years now.
Delphi is a vendor to GM and competes with them along with VDO, Siemens, Bosch and whoever else for the OE business. It is no longer a captive "slam dunk" as it once was.
Using the matching #s carburetor goes far beyond originality, Charles. There are subtle differences between 77 78 and 79 400 engines and that's why Rochester issued a new carburetor each year along with the rest of the emissions package to help things along.
Again, with the smaller primary bores of a Q-jet, nothing beats its throttle response, driveability, and fuel economy. A Holley, even well adjusted, can't and never will touch it :).
You should be able to buy an EDS Parts Imager system direct from them if you are a legit business.
Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car...
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