Heavy duty "stock" SBC starter?

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Short version: If I'm getting one from a partstore, are there any years that are "heavy duty"? That's twice now I've been sidelined at the track with a starter
that won't turn over very fast (same starter, different engine) and a racing starter is pricey - and there's only one race left this year.
(stock rebuild - $80 CDN, racing starter - $300 CDN. I was thinking of a stock rebuild and a new battery that I can use in my truck in the winter.)
Long version: I had to pit and shut off because I tore a tranny line and then I got the infamous "wrrr-wrrr....wrrrr...wrr.....wrr" when I tried to refire. (I have a start switch and an ignition switch so I can't even blame too much timing...) I also have a heatshield on there, but I think the starter may just be cooked ... remember, this starter was on the engine that saw 270+. We put new brushes in there, but I wouldn't be surprised to see melted stuff when we open it up again... I knew I didn't want to reuse it, but the engine I bought came with the "wrong" starter - it came with the small flexplate starter and no flywheel (was a manual trans car) so I reused the large flexplate I had... and the old starter. (I was out of time - see below...)
FWIW, the starter wiring is 4ga (or bigger) welding cable about 5' long - the battery is in the passenger footwell. Car cranked fine when cold, and all connections are clean and tight. Even with two batteries (booster cables) it barely spun any faster... I think it's just too hot down there.
Should I just buy a racing starter? It's only 9.5:1 (or less) compression...
Oh yeah, and for those of you wondering about the fuel mileage of a 305 vs. a 350? (2 barrel carb, dirt track race conditions) - I got about 7.5 mpg from the 305, about 6 from the 350, which is a 25% increase. (If I got 20 "highway" from a 350, that could mean 25mpg from a 305.) (.4 mile track, 95 laps and about 5 gallons vs 84 laps and almost 6 gallons.)
Out of time: I only had about 20 days between the races... Had to swap engines, repack wheel bearings, built a new gauge "pod", swapped intakes a second time, rebuilt the accessory drive, new rad and fan shroud, new tranny mount, new fuel pump, new nose cone, steering column swap, and probably about 10 more things I can't remember. Then the float stuck in the carb on the day of the race as we were going to load up - impromptu carb overhaul - a small piece of debris was lodged in the float - probably when I was changing fuel pumps I got something in there... and I have a day job. (and it's not car related - this is all evenings and weekends.) I have my crew to thank for this... :)
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, ray wrote:

Specify a starter for a '97 Chev truck. This will get you the much more robust, stronger, lighter, lower-draw, more heat-resistant gear reduction starter.
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

did some searching on acdelco.com
323-255 is most 70's 350's. (and big blocks) (seems the 305's may have a less powerful starter? (forget the pn)) depending on what type of chevy (suburban, 2wd, 3/4 ton etc...) I get either: 323-1064 or 323-485 for part numbers.
unfortunately the website doesn't go into detail of the torque of each type - and I don't want to assume that more $ = better...
I'm going to ask for a 97 3/4 ton 4x4 350 starter. Thanks! :)
Ray
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, ray wrote:

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i don't race a Chev, I race a 1600cc Ford - but we use the same basic race starter as the race starters sold for the V-8's. I have gone to the Nippondenso style from the Hitachi (Tilton) style since they seem more immune to vibration. http://members.verizon.net/~vze4wpr3/chevyspec.html
This thing will get the job done for you, $135US.
Brian

winter.)
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winter.)
Most parts stores will offer a "Heavy-Duty" starter for any second gen V8 car. GM put high torque starters on 70-73 Camaro's, pick up and vans all the way up till the 90's. As well as some B-body cars.
The best thing to do is to find a starter rebuilder local to you. Call and ask them for a "High Torque" starter for a SBC.
Not all 305's will accept both starter cone styles. If your does, be happy. If not a competent rebuilder can adapt a 305 style cone to a "High Torque" starter.
Also beware of cheep "racing" or "Mini-Starters". I have seen a good number of them that are made from a Japanese car starter. What they do there is to make a bolt plate with the starter motor on one side, and the gear on the other. These starters are not high torque units, and where never intended to turn over something like a heat soaked V8.
I would also recommend you ditch the welding cable, go with actual battery cable in that gauge. This is an issue that has been debated in a few forms of motor sports. Charles
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Charles Bendig wrote:

Inquiring minds need to know - if both cables are copper cable of the same gauge, what makes one preferred over the other - number and gauge of stands that make up the cable, copper alloy used, insulation used or ?
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Battery cable has lots of small strands as opposed to fewer large guage in welding cables. (I suppose it depends upon what he has actually bought). I have used welding cable on our 74 Torino without any problems, but it was 25mm square with lots of fine strands.
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Welding Cable is fine stand, while battery cables are thich strand. Charles
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actual
a
Welding Cables use fine strands of wire. They are intended for Ultra high current loads. These cables are intended for ARC welders. They are used between the welder body and the welding gun. Which may have to be rather long, especially when welding parts of a building together.
Battery Cables have much larger stands of wire. They are intended for Automotive (including Semi Trucks) style of current draws. Which are no where near that of a Welder.
If you want more info on this issue, it should all be online, in a searchable format. Charles
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Charles Bendig wrote:

Yes, welding cables are made of copper stranded strands, while battery cables are usually made out of copper strands. This is for the considerable flexibility and fracture resistance benefits of compound stranding only. The current capacity is determined *purely* by the gauge.
No, there would be NO measurable significant distance in the resistance of equal lengths of the two types of cable, of the same gauge. Your suggestion that there are different "styles" of current draw, or that cables "designed for high current draw" won't work in applications that experience "lower styles of current draw" is flatly incorrect, and so is your assertion regarding relative currents in arc welders and in automobile electrical circuits.
The current through a pair of automobile battery cables can easily reach several hundred amps -- higher than the range of any arc welders most people have occasion to see -- when cranking the engine under high-demand situations (e.g. cold weather).
DS
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Let's just throw the principals of Electrical Engineering out the window here. No wait doing that would be moronic.
Look at a few facts: Automotive electrical systems run off of either: 6, 12(standard), 16, 18(16 and 18 are used in some motor sports), or 24 Volts (US Military uses 24V electrical systems). Yet have a high Amperage usage, with low voltage. Voltage drops will greatly effect automotive systems.
Where as something like a ARC Welder runs on 220 3 phase electric. Where you not only have Very High Amperage, you also have High Voltage. They larger the units use more Amps then a cars electrical system could handle.
When a electrical system is put together for about anything there are factors they look at: Type of current (AC vs DC, 50HTZ vs 60HTZ). Current draw, normal, low and Peak. Drop (how much will be lost thru length of run), tempitures, as well environment.
Welding Cables were never intended to be used in Cars. The insulation was never intended for the under hood tempiture. Battery Cables were. In many cases the same size gauge of Battery Cable will have twice the insulator thickness.
Welding Cables were never designed for the torsional or tension stresses of an automotive environment either. Where as Battery Cables were. The much fine strands of Welding cables break apart at the terminals when under these stresses. The thicker stands of battery cables are more resistant to this.
Then there is the fact that people will take something like a #1 or #2 gauge welding cable to replace something between #4 to #10 gauge Battery Cable. While it is true that the longer the run, the larger the gauge (trunk mounted batteries for example use around a #4 gauge), grossly over gauging your Cables will do nothing positive for you.
Another thing, just because a Industrial Cable like Welding Cable, cost more per foot (or meter) does not make it any better for the application at hand. Part of the cost of welding cable is the amount of copper in it, as well as the added manufacturing costs.
Over my years of building cars, working on race cars, working on vehicles with winches, and off road vehicles I have seen: Welding cables split long before battery cables would have. Welding cables broken to only a few stands at a terminal, as well as welding cables corroded past usage, in an environment they were not intended for.
Most major Winch makers, and Equipment Fitters recommend using Battery cables over welding cables for the equipment they make or sell. Some will not warrantee electric winch motors if welding cables are used.
You know, you can wire a car with Romex (110/115VAC) household type wiring. In either 12/2,12/3,14/2,14/3 types. It will work for the short term. Is it correct? No. Is it "safe" ? No. Charles
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Charles Bendig wrote:

I'd rather not, but that's exactly what you did with your imaginative little hallucination about welding cable being unsuitable for use as automotive battery cabling because it's "designed for higher amp draw situations".

Molten welding spatter is a great deal hotter than anything found under any hood.
Give it up, Chuck. You stepped in a very deep pile of doo-doo by posting ignorant blather about cable "not designed for lower currents". The longer you stand there and try to insist you didn't step in it, the more people are going to point and laugh. Just quietly wipe off your shoe and move along.
DS
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Normally you're an opinionated arse, but for once I agree with your assessment. What most people don't realise is that the only time stranding in wire affects electrical delivery is when dealing with high-frequency high voltage where the "skin" effect is predominant. That condition won't be found in a car. The main benefit to stranding is that it allows flexibility for fitment and vibration. The only real factor is the cross-sectional area of the copper conductor itself.
:) <--- note smilie!
JazzMan
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, JazzMan wrote:

The rest of me is normally opinionated, too.

Ayup.
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resistance of

that
is
the
insulation
"Molten welding spatter", do you mean Slag? I know what Slag is. It's rather thin in most cases (under a 1/8 of an inch), and not normally more then a 1/8 of an inch wide. It cools fairly rapidly. Slag is really a threat to windshields, exposed skin, air hoses, and Oxy-Acetylene Hoses.
Since Welding Cable is not under that sort of heat lode for long, it doesn't have to be able to sustain it for long.
I don't know about your blathering insulting self, I happen to weld. As well as do vehicle wiring systems. Since you feel like tossing out insults and showing gross stupidity, as well as give bad advice, I'm done with you.
Take your crying else where then alt.autos.camaro.firebird
Charles Bendig Owner Bendig Auto & Rare Parts Hunter auto parts location service
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:03:53 GMT, "Charles Bendig"

Actually, strictly from the conductor point of view, only amps matter. Wattage isn't a factor to a conductor.

True.
That's a good point. I wouldn't know but it certainly sounds reasonable

Not so sure this is the gospel here. Welding cables are made to withstand far more repeated bending, pulling and general movement. That is why they have the greater number of finer strands. That design is superior to handling stresses in general. Just like when I select networking cable. Most applications get "solid" conductor cable, and patch panels get stranded due to the potential of being handled a lot. That's why both solid and stranded networking cable often has nylon cording all along through it, to resist stretching. But anyway I'm getting away from the subject. Back to the topic, as it concerns specific stresses under the hood though, I agree you still may have a point.

But, else being equal, will not hurt either.
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On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, SgtSilicon wrote:

It would be a good point if it were correct, but it's wrong. I'll scan and post the relevant pages from the Belden master wire and cable catalogue tomorrow if I remember, so you can see the differences in insulation and construction between welding cable and battery cable.

That's what allows people like Chuck to blather on and not get questioned more than they do -- he says stuff that "sounds reasonable" to people who don't know one way or the other.

Of course it is not. If there are "torsional or tension stresses" on the battery cables in your car, then you have MUCH bigger problems than whether they're made of stranded or stranded-strand construction and how thick their insulation is!

Right, right, and right.

Right again. This notion that Chuck has put forth of cables designed for high current being somehow unsuitable for lower current is just asinine and cannot be supported by any of the principles of electrical engineering he claims to hold so dear.
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the
gauge
used
gauge.
of
is
reach
high-demand
either:
Amperage
could
60HTZ).
In
terminals
more
Welding cable is a lot more flexible then battery cable, and yes it is meant to be so. It is also meant to take some shock loads, yet nothing like a 400 HP V8 twisting when a mount breaks. Nor have I ever seen welding cable ever crimped properly in a car. Once the outer stands are broken, it's usually free from the crimp or on by only a few strands.
I have also done work with LAN's (Local Area Networks). When I had one in my last home I had RG-58 High Heat. Braided metallic sheathing, under poly-vinyl sheathing. We used that since we ran the LAN wires thru the heating ducts, yet not thru the furnace it's self. Looked a lot better then having wires strung all over going down from the second floor to the first floor.
When I build a home I am going to put 3 inch PVC pipes thru out it. That way I only need a fish-tape, and I can run anything except power line thru the walls with ease. Charles
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Charles, the only part of your diatribe against welding cables that has any validity is this issue.
Crimp lugs that are designed for large car battery cables that are coarsely stranded are not correct for high-flex, high stranded cable.
With a crimp lug that is for coarse stranded, it is OK to design it in the shape of a tube that is just crushed around the cable. The compression of the strands is strong enough to prevent flexing at the crimp point.
With a high stand cable, a correct crimp lug design would have 2 things - first it would have a blade that would come down and go into the strand bundle for extra connectivity. Second it would have a tube that would extend around the outer jacket for some distance and would be somewhat flexible, much as a typical plastic strain relief you see in any power cable going into a tool is.
Without the additional flex resistance and strain relief, the flexible cable will end up whipping around right at the crimp point and would very quickly break.
We used to see this problem all the time with the old style "bar of soap" Microsoft mice. The highly flexible cable strands would break internally right at the entry point of the cable into the mouse, with the result after a few years the mouse would not work properly. The new mice all have strain reliefs at that point on the cable nowadays.
There is nothing wrong with welding cable in this application if appropriate strain relief is put in at the crimp. You could probably do it with a couple layers of heat shrink tubing that went over the crimp point and extended down the welding cable for a few inches, although it would be better to use a crimp lug that was designed for this.
The usual welding stinger has the cable extend inside of it for some distance to provide this strain relief.

one
Charles,
Metallic shielded RG58 (ie: STP cable) is ONLY for use with IBM Token Ring. Do NOT use it for Ethernet, it has the wrong impediance. A long enough run will burn out the Ethernet transceivers used in most network adapters.
SOME ethernet cards, particularly older 10BaseT stuff, were designed for use in networks that were migrating from Token Ring, these cards transceivers WILL autodetect if STP is in use and are safe to use in either wiring plant.
Ethernet uses differential signals and is immune to the electrical interference that shielding is supposed to shield against anyway.
Most STP is NOT CAT-5 rated and the stuff that is, is horribly expensive.

Very stupid because the sheathing used in ANY data cable that is NOT plenum rated will give off poison gasses if it catches fire. I don't know what it does if it's merely heated but I would not want to live in a home that had non-plenum rated data cable in the heating ducts.
Running ethernet cable, even plenum, through heating ducts is frankly not very smart. Over time the hot air will harden the sheathing and eventually if you try moving the cable the sheath will crack into pieces. You might get away with it for 10 years or so but eventually the stuff is going to fall apart.

floor
Looks don't equal proper electrical LAN connectivity. One of these days someone will be trying to do high cap data transfers over that cable using 100BaseT full duplex and will be cursing your name when they have to pull out all that misguided nonsense.

You would be smarter to buy the appropriate data plastic interduct that is sold for this purpose. It's a lot easier to work with and it is cheaper.
Ted
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