Heavy duty "stock" SBC starter?

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That does happen.

I have not seen a crimp lug for top post batteries that has a stinger on it. Most welding cable's I have seen were used with top post terminals. Not side post, or Stud terminals.
Seams like alot of extra work, for something un-needed. Using the proper gauge of battery cable, put together correctly will be less head-ache. I still have been told contrary to what your saying by some credible people. Yet who is ever 10000% right, 10000% of the time?

My father & My self ran that back in 1989. When he had a BBS. We had a room dedicated to computers, plus computers in 2 different rooms.
Considering my father was a E.E. who worked with computers, I never questioned him about why. I just did as I was told. His house, his ducts, you know what I mean?
My father got the cable from the design house he worked in. Left overs from when they had installed some. He brought home the crimping tools as well as the proper striping tool.
Back then in 1989 I thought it was as cool as it got. Being able to network a game and data files from one system to another with out having to spend ultra high bucks, or use a slow modem. Hell by comparison my Cable 'modem' blows away my old Hayes from way back when, like a Yugo against a C5-R GTS Class Lemans car.
You don't have to worry about people cussing me in the future at that house. I was a bastard we we got rid of it. I Actually cut the RG's we had run at every visible junction and yanked them out. Including a couple of extra TV cable jacks I had put in. Guess what I did for spite was a good deed after all.
when I moved I took 33 computer cases to the metal yard. I disposed of a 1/4 of boards (mother and cards), chips, and drives. I should have kept one of the old Maxtor 50 MEG! hard drives to show my grand kids, but I wasn't thinking that far a head. I was thinking, man is all of this going to fit in to a storage locker, my apartment, my shop, and my friends barn?
Moving sucks. Charles
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Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Well, that's coax cable, so it's not UTP or STP. Not 10BaseT, but 10Base2. Looks like TV cable but smaller.... I hated crimping that stuff.
Ray
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Charles Bendig wrote:

If a breaking motor mount stretches ANY electrical cable, the person who built the car was an idiot.
And if you're proposing that regular old battery cable would somehow survive it, I'll laugh in your face.
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I'm not saying a battery cable will suspend a motor. Yet the sure will stop one from coming out even when using a fork lift.
What it will do, if it was laid out properly to begin with, is twist on a torsion axis. Doing so with out snapping apart. Usually a good cable will be able to maintain that for 100 laps or so.
Believe me I have seen things shift further then any one would conceive on a race car. Mount A breaks when the car bumps the wall. Mount B gets fatigued, and lets go, mount point C starts ripping from the strain. I have found engines jammed against the passenger side frame rail, with cracked distributors to boot.
One of the joys of race cars, or any car built to a higher performance level then the maker even intended. Charles
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On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Charles Bendig wrote:
[a battery cable will]

A welding cable will do likewise, with greater resistance to snapping apart.
Also, there's no kind of twisting other than the kind that occurs on a torsion axis.

Still waiting for a reason to do so. None has been apparent so far.

And yet it's VERY IMPORTANT in your world to use only the cheap production-type battery cables the maker specified.
Interesting.
DS
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On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:09:07 GMT, "Charles Bendig"

I was talking about Category 5 network cable, which is 8 conductor and terminates in RJ-45 ends, but actually, now that I think about it, the same holds true for thin-net or thick-net coaxial. Thick-net wasn't used for patch panels really but I'm sure there may have been some stranded version of it too. As to house wiring, always wire with more capacity than you need. Even better is to also put in some nice conduit like you're talking about, to make upgrades easier. Wish I had that in my older (1950s) house.
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Nope. All thicknet was solid, because the original design required drilling into the cable jacket and down into the center conductor so you could install a vampire tap, when you wanted to plug another machine into it. It needed the rigidity of the outer shield and a solid center conductor.
Amazingly rediculous design it was, definitely came directly out of the head of an electrical engineer with absolutely no experience running cable of any kind in an office building.
Ted
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On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:55:45 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"

I knew I've never seen solid used for patch panels. I know I've never seen thicknet on patch panels. I didn't know that thicknet was only solid, but I had never seen stranded. I remeber the vampire taps, and it makes sense to just use solid for that.
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Thickness depends on the material. A better (more resistant to conducting electricity) material can be thinner.

If you're loading your battery cables like that, either your battery tray is rusted through and the cables are the only thing keeping it from hitting the street or you've got a busted motor mount and your engine moving around the engine compartment every time you press the throttle. In a vehicle that isn't broken, the cables are static other than a slight vibration from the engine. This shouldn't be any problem if the cable has a little slack in it.

Freshman materials science here. thinner strands generally speaking can withstand a higher stress because they have less inclusions and other defects than thicker strands. This is why alot of small strands is generally able to carry a greater load than a piece of solid material.

Never mind the factors of homemade crimps and such.....
The only factor I can see of any issue would be one of corrosion since welding cable is likely not designed to be exposed to water, road salt, etc. But then again, the average battery cable isn't protected where the connector is crimped on either, and copper is copper.
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Charles Bendigwrote:

When Racing, you don't stop because you busted a motor mount. You stop when something bad enough happens. I do everything from help people build Demolition Derby Cars, to work on Off Road Trucks, to working on regular race cars like the OP has.
In a Demolition Derby car things shift around. Mounts snap, cars get considerably shorter. Heck a friend of mine got his car so bent he was having to reach almost to the roof to steer. That right, the car bent up in the center. When you help people build cars like those, you not so much concerned with appearances, as you are what will last the longest, and eliminating weak links.
When you do Off Road trucks, appearances come back in to mind a bit, but so does making things so they last. Who wants to be on a trail at midnight, 100 miles from the nearest parts store open 24 hours,? Not me, And I do go trail ridding, and mudding after dark. Unless I can't limp it home, I will coheres the vehicle to limp home, or atleast on to public land.
In a car like the OP has, the battery is probably inside the cabin in a battery box. Which means the cable is passing thru the firewall. Probably with out even a bulkhead connector. If that's so welding cable or battery cable can chafe and fail.

Excuse my ignorance as to freshmen material science. I never went to college, other then to pick up some girls, and hang with some friends that went. What I know about Electrical I picked up from knowing engineers.
I won't argue about with you about strand loads, and such. Practical example of that is wire rope. Even wire rope rated for 100,000 pounds has relatively thin strands. Even though the total thickness of the woven strands is somewhere over an inch.

I have never seen any welding cables in cars that do not use a home made crimp. So it is a issue to factor in.

Actually a lot of OEM side post cables have a molded rubber end at the battery side. With a crimped on terminal at the other end crimped over the sheathing. Often the sheathing will shrink away from the crimped end. A common problem in ford vehicles (not just limited to their battery cables).
When I see anything more then minor corrosion on a cable I replace it. When I see split sheathing on a cable I also replace it. In the past I have also made my own Battery Cables. Buying X-number of feet, of X-gauge cable. When I did it, I always crimped my own ends, with a crimping die. Then I would shrink wrap a sleeve over the end. Thus the only exposed part was the terminal it's self. Charles
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Charles Bendig wrote:

remember, I bought the car used - haven't yet changed out everything. Battery in a marine box bolted to the floor. Cables run through the firewall in a huge grommet. + goes to the starter, - to one of the bellhousing bolts.
Ray
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<other non common uses of driving very broken vehicles snipped>
So if that's the case, then well you don't want regular battery cables either. You certainly don't want the battery cables sold at parts stores as the terminals will pull right off in those conditions. You want something that is made well. And I would guess that the failures in welding cable come from workmanship issues at the crimped on connectors. Nothing to do with the wire itself as a regular battery cable made in the same shoddy fashion wouldn't hold up either.

Again, I fail to see how there is a difference here. Regular battery cables aren't exactly anything special. Now if you are comparing some nicely made cables using the typical copper strands found in battery cable where the crimps are made well and the ends sealed to something someone made themselves out of welding cable and didn't dot the i's and cross the t's then sure. But I don't see how an apples to apples comparison is going to favor the less flexiable wire.

So? Of course It doesn't matter what cable is used unless it's protected by a grommet or something it's just a matter of time before chafing causes problems.

So that's really the root cause here, the crappy home-made crimps, not the wire.

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

I've seen the same things on other makes.

And I don't see why with the same attention to detail in workmanship why a welding cable wouldn't last. The only thing I can think of would be the insulation breaking down in a road salt sprayed environment. That's the only thing the welding cable wouldn't have to stand up to. It has to put up with the grease,oil,dirt,cold,hot,ect.... And salt spray doesn't bother most insulation materials, but the wire itself and copper is copper.
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Charles Bendig wrote:

My point exactly. I don't sign my posts with letters after my name, but "BSEE, MSEE" are applicable.

The only thing that matters is how much CURRENT these cables can carry without causing voltage loss. The fact that arc welders operate at higher voltage doesn't matter, because they are designed to carry the same CURRENT as automotive battery cables.

Niether were Compact Discs, but they work quite well there.

At only 12 volts of hold-off requirement, welding cable insulation will CERTAINLY get the job done.

Hogwash. Welding cables when used as battery cables should be terminated in high-quality soldered terminals. There's not going to be any breakage if they're prepared correctly. The cables themselves are meant to be dragged around the shop floor, flexed, tugged, stepped on, and driven over. They are MUCH stronger than battery cables. Battery cables are built to be CHEAP and adequate. Welding cables often provide a better margin of excess performance in all categories than battery cables do.

Except offset the voltage drop. I suggest you apply the principles of EE as you suggested. There are tables where you can look up the resistance per unit length of various types of cables. Given that a starter can draw 130+ amps through the cable, and that welding cables are often used when batteries are re-located to the trunk in race cars necessitating much longer cable runs, "over guaging" is a very useful thing to do.
As for the possible weaknesses of welding cable (insulation, termination) this can all overcome by appropriate fabrication techniques and by appropriate choice of insulation material in the cable.
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I believe the wire used between the forklift batteries and the charging power supplies were of the very flexible welding variety. Also, the heavy duty electric motors that moved had that type of cable slacked up (or else had that nylon flexitrack stuff with some kind of wiring in it).
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My understanding is that battery cables have few strands because it's cheaper and does not need the ability to flex on a frequent basis. Cables that have fine strands of wire, are used because they have the ability to flex and without failing under constant flexing. If you're a welder, you want the ability to articulate your hand and welding device at any angle and not have to fight the cable to get there. I can't understand why a stranded cable and a solid cable would have any difference in carrying DC current.
-Bruce
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Skin effect. The current flows mainly in the outer diameter of a cable.
Also 2 cables can flow more current than 1 cable with twice the cross sectional area.
--

T.C. - 1995 Z28
terminal snipped-for-privacy@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk
  Click to see the full signature.
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wrote:

Skin effect is only on high frequency AC applications.

Hmm.. Physics in the US must be different from the phyics in the UK.
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No, the reason for this trick is that you need to keep in mind that all cables have a certain amount of resistance per foot. I forget what it is for standard copper.
With 1 cable you have, say, 1 ohm per 10 feet. With 2 cables you have 1 ohm per 10 feet - but since the cables are in parallel the effect is the same as wiring 2 resistors in parallel - you halve the total resistance. So, the 2 cables make up 1/2 ohm per 10 feet.
Of course, the negatory to this is that since a smaller cable will heat up at lower current volumes, and a hotter cable has a higher resistance, if you try pushing a great deal more current over the 2 wires, they will heat up so their resistance gets higher, and cancels out the parallel wiring effect.
Ted
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So what you're saying is in reality, two cables can't flow more current than a cable with twice the cross-sectional area.
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No, what I'm saying is that if you graphed both of them you would find the single solid core wire having a higher resistance curve as the current was increased.
There's a point at which the pair of wires is going to have slightly lower resistance than a single wire, because they will not be as hot.
So, the statement "Also 2 cables can flow more current than 1 cable with twice the cross sectional area." is technically true. What is missing is the addition to this statement "as long as the current flow is below the point at which the insulation burns off the cables"
Most good electrical practices today though assume massive de-rating, to the point at which the wires never have any measurable heat. There are exceptions - such as battery starter cables for example. If you disconnect a coil wire and just sit there cranking the starter on and on and on, you will feel the battery starter wire heat up. In extreme examples (such as a stuck starter selonoid) where the starter jams in the on position, the cables will get hot enough to actually catch fire, before the starter's internal windings melt.
Ted
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