302 valve ticking/tapping...

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I have a 302 ('86 block, 28oz imbalance) with '65 289 heads (round pushrod holes, rail rockers, 53.5cc chambers) it has a stockish hydraulic flat tappet cam.
My #8 intake valve makes a ticking/tapping noise. It sounds a lot like when a rocker arm is too loose, except perhaps a bit of a deeper tone. With the engine running and the valve cover off the noise is present. When I push the rocker arm (at the valve tip) toward the front of the motor, the noise goes away and the motor doesn't make any noise. When I let go it will stay silent for a few seconds, then start making the nosie again. If I push the rocker arm (at the valve tip) toward the back of the motor, it will also make the noise. The motor does not make this noise when cold (if it does, it is very faint), only after running for 5-10 minutes to get up to temperature.
This noise is not present when turning the motor over by hand. I checked for clearance issues between the rails on the rocker arm and the retainer, there are none. I checekd to ensure the rocker arm slot is long enough and is not binding on the stud, it is not. There is no sign of abnormal wear on the valve tip or the rocker arm. The valve spring and damper appear to be intact and not binding. The damper does not appear to be hanging or binding on the spring.
If anyone has any thoughts on what this may be I'd appreciate it.
Cory
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adjust your valves to zero lash, plus 1/4 turn. this should eliminate your problem

when
the
goes
silent
very
for
there
not
intact
the
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Unfortunately that doesn't cure it. I've tried tightening it even more (slowly with engien running until it runs rough) and it doesn't do it. The heads don't have a whole lot of miles on them... I got them second hand but they did not have many miles on them when I got them, and I've only put 18,000 miles on them. They should have less than 25,000 miles. All the other rockers are quiet with adjusting to zero+1/4 turn.
I'm wondering if maybe the valve guide on that cylinder could be bad/worn on that valve, maybe letting the valve rock a little in the guide. The noise is a lower pitched noise than typical rocker noise. Don't know if that tells you anything though.
Cory

pushrod
the
rocker
the
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when you go to zero plus 1/4, does the noise go away for a bit and then come back?? if so, than you probably have a bad lifter

push
checked
is
the
on
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I don't remember for sure, but I don't believe it does. I'll test that as you mention though, and see if the noise goes away for a second. It would be nice if it was something as cheap and easy as a bad lifter. I kinda doubt it though, as I don't imagine moving the rocker that little bit has much affect on the lifter. The noise goes away if I push hard on the side of the valve spring and retainer, not touching the rocker arm.
Cory

flat
like
With
noise
stay
make
is
temperature.
retainer,
be
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Instead of constantly just tightening the lifter which does nothing but limit its job why don't you measure the rocker travel. Do some real diagnosis. Install a dial indicator on a good rocker and measure the travel while slowly turning over the engine. Then do the same on the suspect rocker. Make sure that if the suspect bad rocker or cam lobe is a intake you put the dial indicator on a intake, if it is an exhaust, measure an exhaust. Your looking for the same travel. That will tell you if the cam lobe is worn down. Hell even a cheap Haynes manual talks about measuring cam lobe lift.

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I remember now why I stopped reading and posting to this group. Too many smart-asses like you being rude. I think it's clear I've done a little more than just sit there tightening down on the rocker (can't tighten a lifter, except perhaps with a different spring, smart-ass).
In any case, while measuring the travel may be worthwhile, I don't understand how that may cause a ticking/tapping that would stop when applying pressure on the side of the valve. If the cam lobe were worn that should only result in less valve lift. Adjusting the rocker properly should ensure there is no noise as there is no slack anywhere from camshaft to valve. So, if you don't mind, I'm curious as to how a slightly worn cam lobe would make the rather loud noise my engien is making.
For what it's worth the motor only has 18,000 miles on it and was properly broken in, and looking down the head all rockers appear to have the same travel (I know that doesn't necessarily mean much, but I've seen engines with wiped cam lobes and it was obvious to me that those particular valves were not opening as far as the others).
Cory
"pick one" <try again!> wrote in message

(round
I
the
it
and
on
to
binding
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"pick one" <try again!> wrote in message

hydraulic
lot
tone.
When
the
will
push
also
does,
I
enough
ear
appear
it.
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"pick one" <try again!> wrote in message

many
little
now
a
mileage,
type
unavoidable.
need
engine
you
apart.
been
operates and

Sorry kid, laws of physics and my experience both show that rocker arms will need periodic adjustment, unless perhaps polylocks are used. Standard locknuts will back off over time, especially if they have ever been removed after initial installation. It's a fact, get used to it. In the mean time, try learning some basic Usenet etiquette and trimming your quotes.
Cory
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Show an engine with hydraulic tappets that has a recommended periodic adjustment. What law of physics are you implying? The fact is that if the lifter starts to tap it's because of reasons like the internal spring is weak. Tightening down on it only limits the travel of the plunger. That could and does cause the plunger to bottom out. You just created a new tap. Because of the smaller travel of the plunger, less oil is sent to the rocker, you just wiped out the rocker and valve head. If the bottom of tappet has worn enough to tap, the cam lobe is worn also. That extra play will damage the rod, rocker and valve head. A common problem of engine with solid tappets that have not been adjusted regularly.
Backing off locking nuts? Don't think so.

Meaning you did not do the job correctly, they are supposed to be replaced.

Why dont like to read?

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"pick one" <try again!> wrote in message

adjusting.
need
stop
nuts
nuts
not
lfiters
assuming
will
lifter
and does

the
wiped
tap,
valve
adjusted
Once again, you keep talking about lifter noise. i'm talking about rocker noise. You keep ignoring that and talking about lifters. Go ahed and keep donig that buddy, I'm not gonan bother going into any detail correcting you as you'll just rant on about lifters again.

If you don't believe me talk to someone else who has worked on a lot of old cars. Lock nuts do back off. All that holds them tight is a resistance fit at the top of the threads in the nut. That resistance with the threads makes it so the nut requires more torque to back off. With solid lifters they back off much sooner, as the lash makes for a harsher life for the lock nut. Hydraulic lifters will back off the lock nuts too. It takes longer but it will happen, especially with more radical cams and/or high RPM. Another reason why with more radical cams you generally upgrade your rockers and use poly locks. Go ahead and ignore the facts if you choose, it doesn't make any difference to me or my car.

removed
replaced.
Lock nuts generally are good for more than one disassembly and reassembly, and also more than one adjustment. The shop manual also does not say to replace the lock nut. They can generally be reused several times before they wear out. However, even brand new lock nuts are not guaranteed to not back off at all over several hundred thousand miles. it doesn't work that way due to the very nature of how they are built and the environment of holding hold a rocker arm.

I've already read everything in the thread. Basic Usenet Etuquette is to trim any excessive non-pertinent text. It makes it cleaner and easier to read and also reduces the size of the file. It's simply being polite, but I'm not surprised in the least bit that someone so stubborn as yourself will not do the polite thing and trim your replies when appropriate. It seems to me that you've gotten into an 'I'm right, you're wrong' sort of 'Holier than thou' attitude, and it doesn't matter waht I say, because as far as your concerned I'm wrong. You can argue all you want about lifters and lock nuts, and there may be some validity to it from your experience (I'm telling you what I've seen in my experience, and many of my buddies and internet friends have experienced... It would be nice if you could respect that as the facts that it is), however, it is widely accepted and common Usenet practice to trim your replies when the text gets excessive and is not being replied to. Go ahead and deny it, or use whatever excuse you want to. I'm just telling you what is proper and polite.
Cory
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Cory, Get your heads redone and\or (at least) install a new cam and lifters already. There are lots of hypothetical failure scenarios, but....YOUR LIFTERS ARE WORN OUT.
I appreciate your love of your 67-68 Fords (My first car was a 68 XL\GT)(428\2x4\4-speed :)), but when all is said and done, they wear out after 37 years. No amount of throwing used parts at them will fix the problem.
Listen to Pick One instead of arguing with him, you might learn something.             Tom
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already.
ARE WORN OUT.

after 37

something.
Lifters are 1 year old and have 18,000 miles on them. I was not aware a cam and lifters only last 18,000 miles. The heads have less than 25,000 miles on them. I was not aware heads only last 25,000 miles. If you read my posts in this thread you would know that this is a low mileage motor that has been cared for and not abused.
Cory
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cam
on
in
Sorry for being snide in my reply. I was grouchy about something from my day today when I posted that. For wahtever reason you didn't read the part where I metnioned the mileage on the motor. No biggie. The motor has low miles on it and has been broken in properly and treated right, so it should not be having any bad lifters or anything like that so soon in it's life. I would expect at least 100,000 miles out of this motor without any major failures, probably double that though.
I don't understand how a lifter would make the noise that the engine is aming, and if it is the lifter, why does the noise go away when the engine is running and I push on the side of the valve spring? I also have taken the lifter apart and cleaned and inspected it. I soaked it in cleaner and didn't see anything wrong with it (no abnormal wear, everything appeared alright), so I put it back in. Before I go pulling the engine apart to get to the lifter and then taking the lifter apart again and possibly replacing it I'd like to know how or why a lifter might make that noise and what about pushing on the side of the valve spring might make the noise stop. I just don't wanna know why I'm gonna do something before I do it.
Cory
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Cory Dunkle wrote:

Cory, As I understand it, there has been a quality control problem with aftermarket lifters for the last 2-3 years. I don't now the specifics, but I know a number of rebuilders who have commented on the fact. Maybe someone else here knows what I'm speaking of? Anyone? Sorry Cory, last I heard you we're still cobbling on your old 289\302s. I thought this was a problem with one of those high mileage motors. BTW, I just picked up a 68 Custom with a 351\3 on the tree. It's roached but the driveline is OK. Need parts?
                Tom
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out
miles
been
day
where
on
be
would
failures,
engine
the
didn't
alright),
I'd
just
aftermarket
commented on

I thought

but the

I would love the transmission and clutch setup out of that car (maybe the steering column and shifter too)! Heck, I've been wanting a bigger motor. I was thinking of trying a cheap 460 build if the right motor came along. Was hoping I could find something I could get away with a quick re-ring and new bearings, and put a C6 behind it, but maybe a 351W would work well enough (is that 351 an FE or Windsor?). If you seriously wanna part it out I may be interested in the clutch pedal setup, possibly more in you're close enough (I'm in NJ).
Anyhow, I kind hate to take the intake off but for the price of a lifter and an intake manifold gasket it may be worth it even if only to eliminate the lifter as a problem for sure.
Cory
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Cory Dunkle wrote:

I might be able to hook you up with Ford parts.             Tom
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comcast.net You can figure that out,

How so? The Cleveland did not see production till 1970.
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