95' Windstar, Injector Issues

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Hello all,
Buddy brought his van <95' Windstar, 3.8L> to me the other day to have a look-see. Consistent miss on cylinder #6 and 02 lean on bank 2.
On cylinder #6, compression is fine (185 psi), plug is fine, wire is fine, coil pack is fine, injector is fine. Verified spark delivery to the cylinder, ohmed out the injector which was fine as well. So on #6 we have compression, spark and air, but NO fuel. I mean zero fuel, not a drop. All 5 other cylinders are running perfectly.
When hooking a noid light to the injector harness for #6 the light is always ON with key on run, and doesn't pulse when cranking. With all other injectors the light remains OFF with key on run until cranking and then it flashes. This tells me the ground wire for injector #6 has a problem somewhere between the harness and the EEC, or the EEC itself is FUBAR. Injector isn't getting the grounding pulses it needs from the EEC so it ain't opening.
I'm a GM hobby mechanic and don't have much experience with Fords. If this was a GM vehicle I'd pin-out the EEC harness and run new wire from the EEC to the injector. This being a Ford there may be an easier alternative if this is a common problem?
Help?
Thanks in advance,
Doc
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An OHM test NEVER tells if a part can work or not. it only verifies it is not shorted or open.

Are you then saying the light does not pulse engine running or just that you have the key in the run position engine off? The light is on while cranking and not pulsing? Are you saying the light is on at all times? Run and crank? Clarify what you are saying, is the noid light flashing while the engine is running or is it on steady while the engine is running. If it is on steady, the injector is always grounded. Easy check at that point. Disconnect the processor from the harness. Disconnect the injector connector. Now is the proper time for an OHM meter. Check to see if the ground side of the #6 injector ( wire from the injector to processor ) is shorted to ground or is open. Is it open? Replace processor. Is it closed ( shorted to ground )? Fix the short to ground. That is assuming you are accurate in what you observed with the noid light. Should not take any longer than 5 minuets to verify.

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Inline..........................

Agreed. The fact that the injector wasn't shorted or open <and also within the acceptable resistance range given in the FSM> + the noid light results are what led me to my conclusion.

I thought I was clear, sorry. With key OFF, the noid light is always OFF. With key ON (engine NOT running or cranking), the noid light is continuously ON, but very dim. While cranking the engine and/or while the engine is running, noid light is continuously ON (not flashing) and remains dim.
By "processor" I'm assuming you mean the computer right? So what you're saying is test the ground wire of injector #6 between the injector harness and the computer harness. If it's open, the ground is bad. If it's closed, the computer is shot.
So, that being said:
1) What pin on the computer corresponds to #6 injector ground? 2) Where the hell is the computer?
Thanks so far!
Doc
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Read this.
"Is it open? Replace processor. Is it closed ( shorted to ground )? Fix the short to ground. That is assuming you are accurate in what you observed with the noid light. Should not take any longer than 5 minuets to verify."
Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you have a short too ground don't you? Why then would you replace the processor? You would not, you would find the short too ground on the wire! If you do not have continuity you have an open circuit, which is exactly what you should have! The processor is now suspect.

The computer is the injector ground. The computer is just a switch to ground. Which is why I said to disconnect the processor and injector. Now the wire between the injector and processor is isolated. You don't need to know the pin locations on the processor. Think about it. With the wire now isolated and you find continuity to ground where is the problem? If you do not have continuity where is the problem? Want to verify the 2nd result? Reconnect the processor harness connector start the engine and check to see if you have a constant OHM reading from the injector plug to ground. If you think about it, that is what you did with the noid light.

Follow the harness. Just like you would with a GM.

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Inline again.........................

A simple "yes, you got it" would have sufficed.

A simple "I don't know what pin it is" would have sufficed.

Don't know the answer to that one either do you? I followed the harness to the firewall on the driver's side. There's a shitload of geography on the other side of the firewall. It would have been helpful to know approximately where it is.
Doc
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Read your statement, you got it backwards, a "simple yes" would have not sufficed. With the wire isolated you want it OPEN. Open at that point is good! I'll say this again, that is assuming you understood and used the noid light correctly. By your two responses, my doubts now have been confirmed.

I know what the pin number is, again you don't need it. Do not make such a simple problem so difficult.

Yes I know exactly where it is at. You could as well, if you would do about a minuet of real looking. Hell as you said it would be helpful to know approximately where it is, follow the harness.

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you're
ground.
Should
continuity
not
good!
you'd best revise your definitions if you want me to believe that 'open' is good
'open' to any competent electrical troubleshooter means 'no continuity end to end'
you are using 'open' to mean 'not shorted to ground', an entirely different thing

light
wire
know
and
constant
is
really ?
what pin is it ?

to
the
about a

tell us where, O Great Oracle
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If the wire between the injector and processor is disconnected, meaning it is NOT attached to any thing, meaning it is now OUT of the circuit, there had better not be any continuity to ground. So open most certainly good.

If you read what I advised him to do, that statement would not come into mind now would it? Wire disconnected from BOTH components stupid. I'll hold your hand a little. Why do you suppose you would do this? So that you can see if there is a short to ground between the injector and processor. Why? Because a short between the injector and processor will give exactly the condition the OP stated. If there is no continuity from that wire to ground when disconnected that is good. No continuity = open. A very normal part of electronic trouble shooting.

Open means just that open, no continuity. Not shorted to ground can be a good circuit, provided it is not open. I had him make a open to test for a short. Common part of diagnosis.

He does not need it. Think about it. Wire disconnected from both components. Put test lead on battery (-) terminal put test lead on injector ground wire. With both components DISCONNECTED it better be open. If it's open and this person really understands how to use a noid light the suspect part is the processor. Because he does not have the equipment to repair the injector driver he does not need the pin location, now does he? Now you may want to argue that maybe he does, well a person that has that equipment will most assuredly know how to use it and have had proper training. He would also not be asking the questions he has been asking. Making statmentns like "I'm a GM hobby mechanic and don't have much experience with Fords." says a lot. Besides that, all the testing he needs to do can be done right at the injector with just a DVOM and a good head on his shoulders. It looks to me like you are in the same boat he is.

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injector
it's
light.
the
do
should
not
is
is
is
end
mind
wow, I must hit a nerve there

when you have proven that you know what you're talking about, you will be given that opportunity
not until

disconnected
'no continuity', to anyone with an ounce of trouble shooting skill, means that there is an open between one end of a wire and the other
'no continuity to ground' or 'no short to ground' is what you meant

this is rich......a newbie trying to teach me electrical troubleshooting

different
good
short.
you're taling out yer butt here
first you say 'open means no continuity', then you claim that he 'made an open to test for a short'
if it's 'open' (no continuity), then he cannot (by definition) 'test for a short', since the open would prevent any possibility of seeing the short, since the meter is now disconnected from part of the wiring (the part that he 'made an open'
what you need is a lesson in how to state your instructions:
1) disconnect wire at both ends 2) hook one lead of ohmmeter to ground 3) hook other lead to wire in question, you should have 'infinite' ohms 4) disconnect lead hooked to block 5) hook one lead to each end of wire in question 6) you should have very close to zero ohms
there
get it ?

to
the
isolated
that
such a

components. Put

With
person
processor.
does not

he
to use

he
have
needs
on his

looks to like you don't know which pin it is, and are trying to bluff your way out of a hole you dug

harness
on
your silence is deafening......................
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That's correct. Isolating the ground wire from the circuit. If there is even an hint of continuity you have a short. You can even call it a closed or complete circuit. The wire is grounded to something that makes a path to source. He just got his answer fast easy and accurate. There is no debate.

If he needs to have that explicit instructions he should not be doing this, period.
"Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you have a short too ground don't you? Why then would you replace the processor? You would not, you would find the short too ground on the wire! If you do not have continuity you have an open circuit, which is exactly what you should have! The processor is now suspect."
Notice "( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now open at both ends )" even you should understand that. If he does not know what to do with the wire at that point he is way over his head. Obiviously by this staqtement, you are as well....."if it's 'open' (no continuity), then he cannot (by definition) 'test for a short', since the open would prevent any possibility of seeing the short, since the meter is now disconnected from part of the wiring (the part that he 'made an open'"
I told him to isolate the wire and test it for a short, I should not have to tell him how. I'm not going to hold his hand or yours. I'm glad I did not tell him to seperate connector # C147F that would have just made things worse.

Not only do I know what pin, I know the color. The color by the way is a clue on how he can find it, but like you that's over his head. I also know where to go to find the pin location, one of the things one needs to know in diagnosing electrical problems. #6 ground wire color is LG/O. #1 is T oh I'm sorry, LG/O would be light green / orange T would be tan. Want to verify that? Go here https://www.fleet.ford.com/ oh I'm sorry again you don't have a login and password. That I will not give you. BTW I'm not in a hole. If your as good as you are implying we would not be having this little pissing contest. You would know you do not need a pin location.

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what
If
to
both
the
you
have
point
'open'
meaning it

had
continuity
into
be
short
OP
means
a
an
even an

complete
just
a
short,
that
this,
processor
you
no, if I have continuity from one end to the other, I have a GOOD WIRE
your problem is that you use 'continuity' when you mean 'short to ground'
'Continuitiy' means what it says: that the wire is 'continuous' (hence the term 'continuity') from one end to the other

have
have! The

now
what
this
cannot
possibility
to
tell
no, you told him to disconnect the wire and 'test for continuity'
only problem here is your misuse of the term 'continuity'
you use it when you should say 'test for a short to ground'

noid
confirmed.
ground?
switch
Now
need to

have
the
have a

it,
make
wire.
he
maybe
how
questions
don't
testing he

head
your
clue on

to go

diagnosing
LG/O
as
would
still no pin number, eh ?
want me to go look it up for you ?

geography
do
know
and the silence goes on and on...............
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<snip> > >

Read my statements you see that you are twisting what I've said.

" Disconnect the processor from the harness. Disconnect the injector connector. Now is the proper time for an OHM meter. Check to see if the ground side of the #6 injector ( wire from the injector to processor ) is shorted to ground or is open."
Apparently you are not very bright. I told him to disconnect the and check the wire for a short to ground. That is not the same as putting a test lead at each end and looking at the resistance reading.

As you should have already seen, I know the answer.

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"Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you have a short too ground don't you?
Uh, no. It shows I have one continuous piece of wire.
If I have what sould be one continuous wire and I ohm it out and determine it to be "open", I have in fact two pieces of wire held together with insulation.
It would show a short to ground if I held one lead of an ohm meter to one end of the wire and the other to a chassis ground or something not supposed to be connected the unconnected wire.
| > > > > > | > > > > > >> By "processor" I'm assuming you mean the computer right? So what | > > > you're | > > > > > >> saying is test the ground wire of injector #6 between the | > injector | > > > > > >> harness | > > > > > >> and the computer harness. If it's open, the ground is bad. If | > it's | > > > > > >> closed, | > > > > > >> the computer is shot. | > > > > > >> | > > > > > > Read this. | > > > > > > | > > > > > > "Is it open? Replace | > > > > > > processor. Is it closed ( shorted to ground )? Fix the short to | > > > ground. | > > > > > > That is | > > > > > > assuming you are accurate in what you observed with the noid | > light. | > > > Should | > > > > > > not | > > > > > > take any longer than 5 minuets to verify." | > > > > > > | > > > > > > Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both | > the | > > > > > > processor | > > > > > > and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show | > > > continuity | > > > > > > you | > > > > > > have a short too ground don't you? Why then would you replace the | > > > > > > processor? You | > > > > > > would not, you would find the short too ground on the wire! If you | > do | > > > not | > > > > > > have | > > > > > > continuity you have an open circuit, which is exactly what you | > should | > > > > > > have! The | > > > > > > processor is now suspect. | > > > > > | > > > > > A simple "yes, you got it" would have sufficed. | > > > > | > > > > Read your statement, you got it backwards, a "simple yes" would have | > not | > > > > sufficed. With the wire isolated you want it OPEN. Open at that point | > is | > > > good! | > > > | > > > you'd best revise your definitions if you want me to believe that 'open' | > is | > > > good | > > > | > > | > > If the wire between the injector and processor is disconnected, meaning it | > is | > > NOT attached to any thing, meaning it is now OUT of the circuit, there had | > > better not be any continuity to ground. So open most certainly good. | > > | > > > 'open' to any competent electrical troubleshooter means 'no continuity | > end | > > > to end' | > > > | > > | > > If you read what I advised him to do, that statement would not come into | > mind | > > now would it? Wire disconnected from BOTH components stupid. | > | > wow, I must hit a nerve there | > | > >I'll hold your hand | > > a little. | > | > when you have proven that you know what you're talking about, you will be | > given that opportunity | > | > not until | > | > | > >Why do you suppose you would do this? So that you can see if there is | > > a short to ground between the injector and processor. Why? Because a short | > > between the injector and processor will give exactly the condition the OP | > > stated. If there is no continuity from that wire to ground when | > disconnected | > > that is good. No continuity = open. | > | > 'no continuity', to anyone with an ounce of trouble shooting skill, means | > that there is an open between one end of a wire and the other | > | > 'no continuity to ground' or 'no short to ground' is what you meant | > | > | > >.A very normal part of electronic trouble | > > shooting. | > | > this is rich......a newbie trying to teach me electrical troubleshooting | > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > > you are using 'open' to mean 'not shorted to ground', an entirely | > different | > > > thing | > > > | > > Open means just that open, no continuity. Not shorted to ground can be a | > good | > > circuit, provided it is not open. I had him make a open to test for a | > short. | > > Common part of diagnosis. | > | > you're taling out yer butt here | > | > first you say 'open means no continuity', then you claim that he 'made an | > open to test for a short' | > | | That's correct. Isolating the ground wire from the circuit. If there is even an | hint of continuity you have a short. You can even call it a closed or complete | circuit. The wire is grounded to something that makes a path to source. He just | got his answer fast easy and accurate. There is no debate. | | > if it's 'open' (no continuity), then he cannot (by definition) 'test for a | > short', since the open would prevent any possibility of seeing the short, | > since the meter is now disconnected from part of the wiring (the part that | > he 'made an open' | > | | | | > what you need is a lesson in how to state your instructions: | > | > 1) disconnect wire at both ends | > 2) hook one lead of ohmmeter to ground | > 3) hook other lead to wire in question, you should have 'infinite' ohms | > 4) disconnect lead hooked to block | > 5) hook one lead to each end of wire in question | > 6) you should have very close to zero ohms | > | > there | > | > get it ? | > | | If he needs to have that explicit instructions he should not be doing this, | period. | | "Think about it, if the wire is isolated ( why you disconnect both the processor | and injector, the wire is now open at both ends ) and you show continuity you | have a short too ground don't you? Why then would you replace the processor? You | would not, you would find the short too ground on the wire! If you do not have | continuity you have an open circuit, which is exactly what you should have! The | processor is now suspect." | | Notice "( why you disconnect both the processor and injector, the wire is now | open at both ends )" even you should understand that. If he does not know what | to do with the wire at that point he is way over his head. Obiviously by this | staqtement, you are as well....."if it's 'open' (no continuity), then he cannot | (by definition) 'test for a short', since the open would prevent any possibility | of seeing the short, since the meter is now disconnected from part of the | wiring (the part that he 'made an open'" | | I told him to isolate the wire and test it for a short, I should not have to | tell him how. I'm not going to hold his hand or yours. I'm glad I did not tell | him to seperate connector # C147F that would have just made things worse. | | | | > > | > > > | > > > > I'll say this again, that is assuming you understood and used the noid | > > > light | > > > > correctly. By your two responses, my doubts now have been confirmed. | > > > > | > > > > > | > > > > > | > > > > > >> So, that being said: | > > > > > >> | > > > > > >> 1) What pin on the computer corresponds to #6 injector ground? | > > > > > > | > > > > > > The computer is the injector ground. The computer is just a switch | > to | > > > > > > ground. | > > > > > > Which is why I said to disconnect the processor and injector. Now | > the | > > > wire | > > > > > > between the injector and processor is isolated. You don't need to | > > > know | > > > > > > the pin | > > > > > > locations on the processor. Think about it. With the wire now | > isolated | > > > and | > > > > > > you | > > > > > > find continuity to ground where is the problem? If you do not have | > > > > > > continuity | > > > > > > where is the problem? Want to verify the 2nd result? Reconnect the | > > > > > > processor | > > > > > > harness connector start the engine and check to see if you have a | > > > constant | > > > > > > OHM | > > > > > > reading from the injector plug to ground. If you think about it, | > that | > > > is | > > > > > > what | > > > > > > you did with the noid light. | > > > > > | > > > > > A simple "I don't know what pin it is" would have sufficed. | > > > > | > > > > I know what the pin number is, again you don't need it. Do not make | > such a | > > > > simple problem so difficult. | > > > | > > > really ? | > > > | > > > what pin is it ? | > > | > > He does not need it. Think about it. Wire disconnected from both | > components. Put | > > test lead on battery (-) terminal put test lead on injector ground wire. | > With | > > both components DISCONNECTED it better be open. If it's open and this | > person | > > really understands how to use a noid light the suspect part is the | > processor. | > > Because he does not have the equipment to repair the injector driver he | > does not | > > need the pin location, now does he? Now you may want to argue that maybe | > he | > > does, well a person that has that equipment will most assuredly know how | > to use | > > it and have had proper training. He would also not be asking the questions | > he | > > has been asking. Making statmentns like "I'm a GM hobby mechanic and don't | > have | > > much experience with Fords." says a lot. Besides that, all the testing he | > needs | > > to do can be done right at the injector with just a DVOM and a good head | > on his | > > shoulders. It looks to me like you are in the same boat he is. | > | > looks to like you don't know which pin it is, and are trying to bluff your | > way out of a hole you dug | > | > > | | Not only do I know what pin, I know the color. The color by the way is a clue on | how he can find it, but like you that's over his head. I also know where to go | to find the pin location, one of the things one needs to know in diagnosing | electrical problems. #6 ground wire color is LG/O. #1 is T oh I'm sorry, LG/O | would be light green / orange T would be tan. Want to verify that? Go here | https://www.fleet.ford.com/ oh I'm sorry again you don't have a login and | password. That I will not give you. BTW I'm not in a hole. If your as good as | you are implying we would not be having this little pissing contest. You would | know you do not need a pin location. | | | | > > | > > > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > > > >> 2) Where the hell is the computer? | > > > > > > | > > > > > > Follow the harness. Just like you would with a GM. | > > > > > | > > > > > Don't know the answer to that one either do you? I followed the | > harness | > > > to | > > > > > the firewall on the driver's side. There's a shitload of geography | > on | > > > the | > > > > > other side of the firewall. It would have been helpful to know | > > > > > approximately where it is. | > > > > > | > > > > | > > > > Yes I know exactly where it is at. You could as well, if you would do | > > > about a | > > > > minuet of real looking. Hell as you said it would be helpful to know | > > > > approximately where it is, follow the harness. | > > > | > > > tell us where, O Great Oracle | > > > | > > > | > > | > > | > your silence is deafening...................... | > | > | |
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I guess you have a problem following as well....
" He does not need it. Think about it. Wire disconnected from both components. Put test lead on battery (-) terminal put test lead on injector ground wire. With both components DISCONNECTED it better be open. If it's open and this person really understands how to use a noid light the suspect part is the processor. Because he does not have the equipment to repair the injector driver he does not need the pin location, now does he? Now you may want to argue that maybe he does, well a person that has that equipment will most assuredly know how to use it and have had proper training. He would also not be asking the questions he has been asking. Making statmentns like "I'm a GM hobby mechanic and don't have much experience with Fords." says a lot. Besides that, all the testing he needs to do can be done right at the injector with just a DVOM and a good head on his shoulders. It looks to me like you are in the same boat he is."
What boat are you in?

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Exactly why I needed the pin number if I was to test for continuity...............<sigh>.

I'd sure as hell like to know! I need it to test for continuity, AND if the ground wire is shorted, I'll need it to know which wire to cut from the harness to run a new one. <sigh>

Kinda hard to get straight answers from this fellow eh?
Doc
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Test for continuity? You know there is continuity by the fact the niod light lights. You need to find if the wire is shorted. You do not need a pin location for that. Beyond that to check the continuity of a wire is stupid. I can guaranty you will see just what you would expect OHMing out the wire. Which is meaningless even a highly corroded wire with green fuzzes at the terminals will OHM out with in normal ranges. To check for high resistance in the wire you need to watch voltage drops. Beyond that a simple examination of the harness will revile more than a "continuity" test on a piece of wire. If that wire is shorted to ground it will be VERY easy to see.

You don't need it for either reasons. You can find it easier than counting pins, need more hand holding for that?

You got a straight answer. Don't blame me for your short comings.

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end
light
location
Which is

will
you need

will
shorted
bull sh*t

such
the
pins,
don't know, do you Edison ?

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