Another sad state

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wrote in message news:460fe46a$0$16282>

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That may be his opinion but it a wrong opinion. If he had never seen one of the three year old Focus courier cars, with nearly 400K on the clock you would realize his error. Courier fleets buy a lot more Focus' than they buy Corolla or Civics LOL
mike
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Ashton Crusher wrote to dh:

At least not the average Vibe and Matrix owners who've taken part in CR's annual reliability surveys from 2003-2006 (5Ύst, 1=worst):
Vibe: 5 5 5 5 Matrix: 4 5 5 5
The reliability ratings for individual components are identical for 49 out of 64 ratings, and where they're different, 10 show the Vibe being more reliable in some areas, 5 show it being less reliable, and on a weighted basis it's 11 for the Vibe, 5 for the Matrix.
IOW if these surveys show bias, it's against the Toyota Matrix or in favor of the Pontiac Vibe.
I see American cars all

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On 3 Apr 2007 00:06:18 -0700, "larry moe 'n curly"

My annual buyers guide shows half a gold star for the Vibe and a full gold star for the Matrix. Identical cars !!!!!! The only reasonable explanation is that Toyota owners fudge their reports to make their cars look better and/or that Pontiac owner fudge to make them look worse. It would certainly fit the pattern shown over and over again on newsgroup discussions. Visit a Honda specific group and all you see are discussions of blown head gaskets yet ask a Honda owner if they ever have trouble and not a single one has ever had to have anything on their car fixed.

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wrote in message news:460fe46a$0$16282>

You really are blind. CR isn't in the pocket of Detroit like the "reliable sources" you use. Go ahead and live in fantasy land.
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On Sat, 7 Apr 2007 06:19:04 -0400, "Jim Higgins"

Yes, all I have are the experience's from hundreds of our fleet vehicles, almost all domestic, that are exceptionally trouble free. They go in for service every 6000 miles for oil changes, 30,000 for transmission and brakes. The worst thing that's gone wrong on my "personal" fleet cars in the past decade has been that a couple of the electric windows stopped working. Not a single one of these domestics has left me on the side of the road in 30 years of use.
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wrote in message news:460fe46a$0$16282>

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Why do you think a Focus isn't reliable? Even Toyota Reports (errr.. I mean Consumer Reports) gives the Focus decent reliability marks. The Focus get the same rating as the Corolla.

Toyota has been building essentially the same Corolla for 20 years. Yet more Corollas have been recalled that Foci. What percentage of Corollas will make it to 300,000 miles?

Toyota apparently can't do it.
Ed
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CR reports on what their subscribers tell them. If you think Toyota owners are buffing up their reports to make their decisions look good, then tell me why Ford owners don't do the same.
The Focus also doesn't get the same ratings as the Corolla on Edmunds. They've had more years of practice building the things; they should be doing a better job than Toyota. But they don't. Ford apparently is willing to risk unpleasant owner experiences. Twenty years ago, when the Japanese cars had not made a name for themselves, this was probably not going to hurt them much. Look where it's gotten them today.

If Toyota wasn't delivering satisfaction, they wouldn't be selling the way they are.
I am willing to consider purchasing a domestic car. At the relative prices, who wouldn't? But I check their reliability rankings before I go buy a car and, so far, it's not equal. I'll take my chances with Toy-Onda, thank you.
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There's the bias again. If Toyota screws up you'll give them a pass. But if Ford built just as good a car you bitch it should have been even better, damn it. You people just look for things to criticize and complain about on a domestic car and will excuse every fault on an import. If a tie rod on a ford is defect and there is a recall it's just more evidence of poor quality. When the same thing happens on a Toyota you'll claim it shows how good they are at taking care of their customers!!! I think Toyota is currently recalling around a million vehicles for this kind of safety defect but you don't see nearly the kind of screaming headlines about it as you would if Ford was doing the same.
Ford apparently is willing to

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Point out to me where I said that.
I have said that until Toyota screws up, I'll continue to buy them. If Toyota treats me well, I'll return the favor.
If I end up with problems, I'll have to reconsider. If Ford hadn't screwed me over, I might be saying the same thing about Ford. But the car was riddled with problems that they couldn't find or didn't care about and I have *many* friends with Bad Ford Experiences. I'd be a fool to stick with Ford after that and I am not a fool.
My GM experiences were nothing to write home about, either. I take pretty good care of my cars and a dead camshaft at 80K miles does not encourage me to buy another GM.
I bought my first Toyota, new, because it was the car I wanted at the price I was willing to pay. After 4 years of perfect satisfaction, I bought another, taking a chance on a clean used one. Great car. So I bought another used Toyota. Great car. So I bought another used Toyota. Great car.
100K miles on 4 cars that average 7 years old with an average of 85K miles or so on each and no problems. You do whatever you want with your money but I'm buying more Toyotas.

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C. E. White wrote to dh:

No, they don't. For each year from 2001-2006, their overall reliability rating for the Focus is average, for the Corolla it's well above average.
OTOH the Focus sedan received a higher overall test score, 77 points, placing it at the upper range of CR's "very good" bracket, just a point behind their top rated small car, the Honda Civic, while the Corolla, at 68 points, was in the middle of that bracket (both automatics).
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Its' not new and, there's nothing wrong with the Focus. Consumer Reports consistently likes it, owners like it, the local currier service owns a bunch and replaces them with more Focii. Of course you can choose not to look.
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When I owed my fleet service business we serviced thousands of courier cars in several states. They used mostly the Focus, Civic, Corolla, Neon, VWs, Cavaliers, and the Korean cars. They are run round the clock seven days a week. 100K a year was not uncommon for three of four years. Like all fleets, courier companies look at the total cost of ownership from original cost to insurance, maintenance, repair and parts cost as well as trade or disposal costs.
The courier fleet favorites were the Koran cars, then the Focus and other domestics, then the Japs, then the VWs.. There was little difference in maintenance and repair cost among them but purchase prices and the cost and availability of parts were the difference
mike

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Mike Hunter wrote:

Why did they like the Proton (the only car brand produced primarily by Koran readers) more than the other cars?
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Mike Hunter wrote:

Which publications that don't charge for the use of their "best buy" designation or that let members of their editorial staffs work as consultants, AKA bribe takers, with the auto industry?
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You are entitled to you own opinion, no mater how convolute it may be. LOL
mike

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Mike Hunter, the source of all human wisdom, automotive and otherwise.
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