Any REAL experts on here?

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Here's a really far-out thing... for some reason the page on my evtm showing nothing but FP circuitry includes "BOO" (Good to know that term stays the same). Brakes On/Off
Do your brakes lights work? Did you try to start it with foot on brake pedal?
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No, I only tried starting it in 'park'. I can't recall having to ever put on the brake to start it but I will try it in case my memory is faulty.
That would really be something if all of this came down to that being the problem. I would want to kill Helms.
Cass

includes
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Backyard,
I think we are going astray here. I guess this is normal since you have a book on the '94 and my book is about the '96.
I don't recall what you are calling the DLC unless it is the main computer (PTCM - Powertrain Control Module). Nevertheless, the VLCM gets at least one signal on its pin 12 which is labeled fuel-pump control input. That comes from pin 80 on the PTCM. However, the what I am calling the low-speed feed to the pump or regular running signal exclusive of the '2-second' prime pulse, may be coming from the data buss. This is where we run afoul of normal trouble-shooting.
I don't know what EDM fans are unless you mean the air-conditioning fans/blower/s. The VLCM does not control those/it. The VLCM only controls the engine cooling fans, i.e., on-off and variable speeds.
I can't dynamically test the gate of the pump control mosfet and compare it to the fan driver mosfets UNLESS I got to one heck of a lot of trouble by making up a patch-cord to tap into those gates while the VLCM is installed and under power.
I don't know about you being nice. You seem nice to me. However, my orignial post was intended to provoke thought. I knew that by saying 'any REAL experts', would gain attention and only the most confident of the lot would respond, if at all. It was a sort of 'throwing down of the gaunlet' alerting the incompetent that this was a problem that was going to take some real thought and in-depth analysis. Yep, that probably sounds haughty but, as you know, there are a few folks out there who will say to change the fuse and buy a new box..
Regardless, I appreciate your competent help.
Cass

VLCM
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and
lot.
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Cass opined in

Sorry.. Those ARE the cooling fans I was speaking of.
I have a 95 EVTM on my son's PC, that should be OBDII... he lives 50 miles from me.. I'll check it if I get there tomorrow
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If you are saying that the VLCM controls the air-conditioning blower/s, I disagree. I could be wrong but I think it (VLCM) controls the engine cooling fan, the fuel-pump and the a/c clutch.
It really doesn't matter for my problem but it may help if we agree on this as that will mean we are on the same page.
Thanks
Cass

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Backyard, you should do a google search on Cass and then decide whether you want to waste another second trying to help him. I wouldn't give him shit. Bob

should
describe...
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Bob,
What seems to be upsetting you? Are you upset because at one time I mentioned that there are a lot of crooks in this business and some crooks got upset and began a flame war to run me off and I wouldn't run?
That is exactly the truth and you know it. I see that you are still a person who likes to cause and stir up trouble.
Backyard Mechanic seems to be a very nice and knowledgeable person. I didn't expect to meet someone on here with as much knowledge as he demonstrates.
Bob, again, why are you trying to stir up trouble?
Cass

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Me upset? Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm actually pretty amazed at how polite you can be when you need something. I just thought backyard should know who he is really dealing with. Bob
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Bob,
Being polite is what most mature adults are in their normal state. Those adults have learned that courtesy and friendliness is a lot more fun and helpful than being nasty and mean.
I don't know where you came in on the original brouhaha but I had only made a comment about there being a lot of crooks in this industry and it upset some folks (apparently the crooks) and it all went to Hell from there.
Now, as you know, I don't run from trouble. My personal philosophy is that if you run, you only embolden the cowards and bullies to continue with the next fellow that they don't like. So, I always try to hit harder and more often. If you come in the middle of a fight, it is hard to tell who started it and who is simply refusing to take it.
Regarding Backyard Mechanic, I am not sure but I think he doesn't need you telling him who to talk with and who to ignore.
Are you Knutson?
Cass

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in
Cass, You may want to share the year with us, this could have EEC4 or 5. Either way, the relay has power supplied by the battery all the time. The variable is that ground for the relay is provided by the PCM, which sends power to the fuel pump. Your EVTM should be enough to troubleshoot this. Make sure that power comes in where it should, if that's OK, try grounding the wire to the PCM instead of holding the relay, if this works, trace your wiring or check your PCM.
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Pygocelis,
I'm sorry, I thought that I had mentioned the year but see that I did not.
The car is a 1996 Lincoln Mark VIII.
As I mentioned in another post, the relay IS getting 12 volts and if I ground the other side of the coil, the relay pulls in. The problem is that the relay is not being grounded and that ground comes from the VLCM and that unit is told what to do about the fuel pump by the PTCM. So, I am not sure if the problem is IN the VLCM or the PTCM or perhaps both.
Thanks
Cass

the
push
your
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Cass wrote:

ihave the ford CD for 1996 and will look into the cd tonight and see if i can find anything for you... it has the ford/mercry products in it... dont know about the MarkVIII, but will give it a try..
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Thanks, Jim. I would appreciate it.
I just bought a 17 cd set about Ford. It hasn't arrived. The guy says that it is the same information that Ford uses. I don't know if that means the cds are from Ford or it has Ford info contained on the cds.
This has been a real beast to diagnose.
Cass

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Jim,
Thanks for the document. It is a little hard to read as it is squashed down. Also, it seems to be just a sort of block diagram or theory of operation in block form rather than the actual circuitry. Where your document shows a pin 13, for control of the relay, my book shows pin 12 of the VLCM going to pin 80 of the PTCM.
IF IT IS REALLY PIN 13 then, that may be the problem as that hasn't been checked, that I can recall. Pin 13 isn't even called out in the EVTM other than showing it in the pictorial view of the EVTM.
Pin 30 is the high side of the relay contacts while pin 87 is going to the fuel-pump; both of these being on the VLCM. Your document shows different pins.
What a beast!
Thanks
Cass

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Pygoscelis,
Thanks for the diagram. I have that one. However, I have traced the wires associated with the VLCM to the fuel-pump relay and all are good and measure < 1 ohm. I also am getting 12 volts to the high side of the relay. I have measured the feedback circuits from the VLCM back to the Power-train control module and all look good. I have measured the grounded side of the f.p. relay back to the VLCM and it is good so, it has to be that either the VLCM is not being told to turn on the relay or the VLCM itself is defective OR the PTCM is not telling the VLCM to turn on the f.p. due to some other sensor give the PTCM the information to hold off on the fuel-pump power.
The pins on the VLCM are fine as are the pins inside the connector that mates with the VLCM.
I just wish I knew how to tell which module it is. It has to either be the VLCM or the PTCM UNLESS it is a sensor going to the PTCM telling it to not power the fuel-pump.
This one is a real Sherlock Holmes job and is a challenge to me.
Thanks for the document.
Cass

finding
5.
this.
find
VLCM.
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Cass wrote:

i got a 93 taurus and the integrated control module(constant control relay) did the same thing to the a/c (voltage to the a/c compressor).. probably got what i have... i got the $65 shop manual and the $32 electrical/vacuum trouble shooting guide, but i like you dont have the Power control manual which helm want $300 for... the books i have walk you to the steps to check everything up until the Power control.. that is where mine stopped also... i got the a/c working dont know how, it just started working.. i think it was the contacts in the relay for the a/c i did not take the module apart to find out yet.. next time it stops working i will.. i have been on various newsgroups/boards with this and found that some people check the relay by taking it apart and resoldering wires in it.. probably not your problem as you get no signal from the Power control module to the relay.. on mine if this is the case there is another relay(sensor??) that is not operating correctly and feeding bad info into the Power control module...look for that in the electrical/vacuum troubleshooting book....
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Jim,
Thanks for the reply.
The a/c clutch is controlled by the variable load control module in mine, as well. My module also controls the engine cooling fan. The fuel pump gets turned on by this module but the module gets info from the power-train control module and as you say, I suspect some sort of other sensor is telling all of this to NOT turn on the fuel pump.
I will keep plugging.
Cass

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push in

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