Bias Against Domestic Cars

It's those things, plus it's the type of buyer that buys say a Corolla verus a Prizm, and how they take care of the vehicle. Toyota buyers tend to me more highly educated, higher income, and more likely to follow the maintenance schedule, which would result in fewer Corolla problems.

Reply to
SMS
Loading thread data ...

I hope you don't really believe that. If you do I think your ego and elitist attitude need some adjustment, your blanket statement is beyond believeable sounds like a teenager.

Reply to
Tom

Actually Toyota buyers DO think they are smarter than the average new vehicle buyer.

When I was in retail that was one of the things we loved about them, it made is easy for us to get an extra 20% to 30% out of them when we sold them a car than we could get from the buyers in our domestic brand stores LOL

Reply to
Mike Hunter

So you believe that the demographics of a Toyota buyer are the same as the demographics of a Chevrolet buyer?

It may well be elitist for a car-buyer to have shunned a Geo/Chevy Prizm in favor of a Toyota Corolla, but the sales figures of each model prove that there had to have been reasons that the Corolla sold so much better than the Prizm. Up until recently, one reason to have chosen a Chevy over a Toyota would have been the wider availability of warranty service, but at least in my area so many Chevy dealers have closed that the Toyota now wins in that regard. The Corolla and Prizm were comparably priced, the Prizm has a lower MSRP, but the Corolla was heavily discounted, often to well below invoice.

Reply to
SMS

I've seen their surveys back when I subscribed. They are little better then opinion polls. You can say anything you want, you don't document anything, there is no attempt to make the sample statistically representative of anything, they just take the answers from whichever subscribers feel like replying. If you paid $2000 more for your Toyota then for a comparable Chevy you an be sure many of the respondents are going to sugarcoat their experience, after all, they are not going to want to face up to the fact that every Toyota dealership has a big repair shop in the back just like every Chevy dealer does.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

I recall a survey of the Mitsubishi Eclipse and the Dodge and Plymouth version. They were ranked by consumers (not necessarily owners) to have different quality levels. 1 Mitsu, 2 Dodge, 3 Plymouth. It was strictly perception, not based on real facts. Some of the people surveyed had no idea they were identical cars.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

You can read the exact same remarks in the archives of the Saturn newsgroup, where he trolled for a decade and compiled thousands of posts attacking Saturn and other domestic automobiles under various accounts. The best ones are where he contradicts himself and even ignores (or attacks) Consumer Reports when it didn't support his agenda. CR is like any other magazine. The editors are human. They have biases. They know their demographic and cater to it very well, because that's where their paycheck is. Their surveys aren't randomy sampled or scientific in any way. The results are not peer reviewed and they don't publish any statistical information like sample size, margin of error, standard deviation, nada. In the case of their red and black circles for reliability, they don't even tell you what they mean on an absolute scale; usually only in percent above/below average. That kind of information isn't all that helpful unless you know what average is. 40% above average when average is near zero is not a good way to scale your data to show people how many problems to expect over a typical period of ownership. More importantly, they don't tell you much about the severity or cost of the problems, only what categories are most typical. Oxygen sensor, engine oil sludge or worse? Who knows.

That's not to say the reviews and reliability results aren't any good, but that they really aren't all that different from any other auto magazine. If you find you generally agree with them, great, but that doesn't make their results any more meaningful or accurate. I like Consumer Reports for the most part, but the non-random surveys and dumbed down results are not impressive by any statistical standard. Their reviews are usually reasonable enough. Usually they seem close to the mark, but sometimes they miss badly. Don't rely on them as the only resource and you'll be fine. For example, I'm still not sure how their 32mpg city fuel economy rating of the new Prius is anything close to "real world". We never owned a hybrid before and from our first tank it's been over 50mpg both estimated from the trip computer and calculated from gas fill ups. No fancy driving habits or super inflated tires or anything. Many other owners report the same. As with everything, don't always believe what you read.

Reply to
caviller

Eventually, Consumer Reports lumped corporate twins together so that the results were the same for all siblings. As it was, it showed the very real problems inherent to their surveys and sampling.

Reply to
caviller

Of course they do. They always state the sample size, and if they don't have a sufficiently large sample for a specific product then they leave it out, as you can see in every one of their surveys, including the most recent wireless carrier surveys.

Claims of bias are pure sour grapes. A few people that buy a product get all upset when their choice is not validated by independent entities. No where was such an attitude more prevalent than for Saturn owners which could never accept the fact that all the marketing hype about the brand was not supported by the statistical reports of reliability from Consumer Reports and J.D. Power. You of course are well aware of this behavior since you were one of those that engaged in it.

Reply to
SMS

The perception of consumers versus responses to specific questions regarding owner problems are two very different things.

There seems to be an idea that the Consumer Reports surveys of reliability consist of questions like "Do you think xyz is a reliable vehicle" when in fact the surveys are limited to specific questions regarding the reliability of specific sub-systems of the vehicle.

Reply to
SMS

And there we have the extent of the proof that CR has some inherent bias.

Of course the reality is that no one has ever suggested that a Toyota owner is more likely to sugar-coat their experience than a Chevy owner. In fact you could argue that the Toyota owner is more likely to complain about problems because they have higher expectations.

And of course there has never been anything close to a $2000 difference in identical vehicles, identically equipped, with identical warranties, sold through different channels. There were MSRPs that were a few hundred dollars apart, and street prices that were even fewer dollars apart.

Reply to
SMS

I'm not so sure. People often over pay for things and swear it is a great product at a great price because they don't want others to think less of them or admit they made a mistake. No different than proudly wearing a shirt with a little alligator logo while not getting caught wearing on with the Sears logo.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

The number of people that don't want to admit that something they bought has problems, simply because they paid a high price for it, is offset by the number of people that complain more about any problems because they paid a high price for it. In any case, the number of people that are so inclined to exhibit these behaviors is very small.

Reply to
SMS

I don't have figures, nor do I have the inclination to research it, but I think the number may be much higher than you think. Perhaps there is a psychology major lurking here with real numbers.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

"......Toyota buyers tend to me (sic) more highly educated, higher income, and more likely to follow the maintenance schedule....."

personal observations of one who is old enough to have been around when imports really took off:

Datsun, Toyota et al took off because they were CHEAP......an average American car would set you back about $4500+, but you could pick-up a new Japanese car for less than $2000.

yes, I had friends who bought 510s, Mark IIs etc: they were mostly buying their first new car, i.e. a new import vs a used American car....and....they were graduating from $400 beaters. In those days, at least, they weren't better educated surely not more affluent. In most cases, new import owners were greatly satisfied with their new car....because.....it was better than the 10 year old, 200,000 mile Valiant or Fairlane it had replaced - big surprise!

but I'll agree that they tended to take better care of them: people expected their Chebbies and Fords to go 200,000 miles without any maintenance other than adding an occasional quart to the never-changed oil. But the new import owners treated them like gold......don't know why: was it better dealer service or because other shops wouldn't (couldn't) work on unfamiliar imports......but people tended to to take their imports back to the dealer for frequent maintenance. Maybe fear that a little 4 cyl engine demanded better care than a 400 ci V8.

From experience, some of the maintenance required back then:

had a friend with a 60s Mercedes.....the suggested maintenance included items like having the main bearings measured for wear once a year. I'm thinking that ANY car treated to service like that would tend to last. An extreme example, but people took better care of imports.

we were all impressed with the precision assembly of early Civics and Accords. We didn't know much about those suspension struts: but the Honda owners manuals said that all 4 should be replaced every 20,000 miles. (can you imagine Ford telling you to replace the suspension on your Torino every year or two....but import owners didn't object).

then there's rubber timing belts: American car owners (other than a few Pontiac 6 drivers) had never heard of such a thing....we had timing chains that normally lasted forever. But import owners dutifully went back to the dealer to have their belts changed, along with a plethora of maintenance American cars never got.

andsoforth. Yes, American cars had a stretch of poor assembly - crooked chrome, poor panel fit, etc. - that peaked in the mid-70s as makers rushed to adapt big, heavy cars to safety, emissions and fuel efficiency standards that hadn't existed when the cars were tooled. But cars were cheap and disposable back then (memory fails, but seems that McNamara even stated publicly that the Falcon was designed as a "throw-away" car to be driven into the ground in 4 years and junked). If American cars were such crap, why are collectors paying a fortune for restored 60s/70s era specimens.....haven't seen any Datsuns on RM lately.....maybe there aren't any left to restore.

Toyota owners more intelligent? I'm sure Prius owners would all agree - just ask them. They're the same ones who are buying those new, "miracle" electric heaters to lower their home gas bills.....or can't figure to turn off the ignition when the poorly designed gas pedal sticks to the floor.

But, I've owned 5 imports over the years: the Volvo was a fine, reliable car. The other 4 were cheap, tinnie scrap that dissolved after a couple winters.

Reply to
Itsfrom Click

I would love to see some data that proved that a Chevy owner filling out a CR survey is more likely to put down problems that they've had, than a Toyota owner filling out the same survey.

In any case, it's rather immaterial. You're not going to get any other reliability survey that has such a large sample size with such a correspondingly small margin of error.

The Consumer Reports test drives and evaluations are another story. Is it bias to give more weight to reliability, safety, and value (which favors companies like Toyota and Honda)?

Reply to
SMS

That, in large part, goes to the heart of the CU bias. Most of their respondents were already of the mind set that domestic was crap and imports were perfect. And they repeat that when they fill in their survey forms. I see people all the time who buy an "import" for no reason other then they don't want a domestic. And that includes people who have run their previous domestics for way past 100K with no more problems then the imports have. In other cases it's in spite of having owned imports that fell apart around them. When someone has a problem with their Toyota they just shrug it off, when someone has a problem with their domestic they can't stop badmouthing it long enough to breath. Go visit an import newsgroup and look at post after post about blown head gaskets. Yet no one cares. But EVERYONE knows that Ford 3.8's had some head gasket issues. Ditto for the Sludged up Toyota engines - no one cares, after all, it's a Toyota!!!

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

You don't understand how the survey works. They aren't asking for a subscriber's opinion of one product versus another, they're asking a series of very specific questions that ask what, if any, problems an owner has had with their vehicle.

There seems to be a perception that the CU survey ask questions like 'which is more reliable, a Toyota or a Chevy.'

I see people all the time who buy an "import" for no

Actually it's the opposite. The Toyota owner with a problem is upset because they have the mindset of 'hey this is a Toyota, I'm not supposed to have these problems,' while the Chevy owner shrugs it off with "well it's a GM product, I expected this.'

In any case the number of owners that would lie when asked questions regarding specific sub-systems of their vehicle, is small. No one has ever shown any bias in the Consumer Reports surveys, either by the respondents, or in the questions that are asked. It's all sour grapes when someone complains. The complaint is usually along the line of 'well _I_ never had xyz problem, so that means the survey is bogus.' These people don't understand statistics or the necessity of a large sample size in order to have valid data.

Reply to
SMS

I'll bite. I'm looking at the April, 2009 auto issue. Let's take the Ford Fusion on page 89. I see lots of red circles. I'm not seeing them state any numbers aside from the model year and the "6" in V6. No sample size for this model is given, though you claim it is always stated. No margin of error for the reliability projection. Nothing of statistical value whatsoever. You must still be getting the special edition? Please share.

Well, I engaged in the amusement provided by helping to debunk your anti-Saturn rhetoric and finding all your contradictions, anyway. For example, as you've apparently forgotten, the SL/SW series usually did reasonably well in reliability, according to Consumer Reports. In fact, according to the April, 2001 issue, every single year of the 8 listed was average (4) or above average (4) and had check marks for their "reliability verdict". So there's no sour grapes to be had there, but of course, I can't tell you how accurate those results are. That's because, again, no statistical information whatsoever is provided. As for the original topic, you're free to believe there is no bias at Consumer Reports. You can believe the same about Fox News and any other media outlet, too. The fact is they are all run by editors and management that have a bias to keep their jobs, in addition to any policy and personal biases they may have. That they don't bother to support their reliability circles with any statistical details should make any skeptic wonder why. In the age of websites, the lack of space in the print version is no longer a good excuse. Is there an organizational policy bias against domestic autos? Probably not. That doesn't make their reviews and reliability results unbiased.

Reply to
caviller

Hi Vic!

You won't be.

While they provide nothing for statistical information on specific models, they probably do have enough data to see basic trends. You can find some interesting things if you dig into the charts and numbers they bury in the print. For example, over the 7 years that is a typical length of new car ownership, the average Ford has roughly 5 issues a CR reader would report in a survey, about the same as Nissan or Hyundai. The average Honda/Toyota owner would have roughly 3 problems reported by a CR subscriber. (I'll even give a margin of error of 1 problem, as the chart was small and integrating in my head is subject to mistakes these days). Granted, these could be minor or major problems, covered under warrantly or very expensive. There's no way to know from CR. Also, you still have the issue of self-sampling and and a non-scientific survey method. See the Chicago Tribune's "Dewey Defeats Truman" case study on why not to use data obtained in this manner...

Reply to
caviller

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.