CAFE standards controlled by our Government? Can someone explain why?

On a MPG/Cost of car, ratio, how do those cars rank?

1 2 3 etc

I ask because I can find a 15 yr old 200K miles car in the newspaper for $900 and it would get no more than 12MPG. So my MPG/Cost of car ratio would kick some ass.

With a new car around $20K, and my imaginary car costing $900, do you realize how many gallons of gas I could buy with $19,100 ? How many miles could I get @ my 12MPG? In the long run, even 5 years or longer, I would win in money saved. I don't see how this could even be disagreed on.

Get the calc.exe handy please.

Isn't the point of all this to save the consumer money on gasoline while at the same time allowing them to have a comfortable ride in a car that will last some 7-12 years ?

If so, how does a Prius do?

Bob Brown wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@bbb.org:

You'll never keep a Prius (or any hybrid) long enough, or drive it enough, to recoup the extra cost of the purchase.

Any "savings" come only if you disregard the premium you paid to be "green".

"Tegger" ...

I, for one, fully intend to get a couple of hundred thousand miles at least out of the Prius. Tomes (189K on the Sienna so far)

The point of a hybrid drivetrain is to *reduce* fuel consumption while at the same time allowing the consumer to have a comfortable ride in a car that will last at least 7 to 12 years. Because of the higher cost of the hybrid drivetrain, the consumer doesn't really save money until the reduced fuel consumption has covered the premium paid for the hybrid drivetrain.

I would have NO interest in a car that only lasted 12 years.

....says the happy driver of a '92 Corolla Wagon......

This depends on the particular car or truck and the difference in the fuel used as well as the price of fuel. For most hybrids, it seems like it takes about 300,000 km or 200,000 mi to pay back the cost, without tax breaks, in the US.

Jeff

Not trying to be mean but I aint going to pay a penny more for anything just because it's 'green'. Other people can do that, those people with extra money I guess.

NOT YOU!

I'm speaking in general.

200K miles on the Prius. What will your gasoline versus cost of vehicle be?

I'm asking if it makes any sense? People ONLY talk about MPG never discussing the premium for a Prius, or for that matter any 'new' car.

With interest, most people have no clue what the final price was on their new , now 5 years old, car.

0% interest or $1000 cash back: Most young, see:dumb, people see that $1,000 and grab it. Low interest would save you more than $1,000. AND if you need $1,000 that bad what in the hell are you doing buying a 'new' car?

Do you want an ounce of gold or a pound of aluminum? Gee, wonder which one the 20s crowd would pick...

Wouldn't that take 300,000 - 500,000 miles?

I'd love to see an article on the person who is first with a 100k prius. I'd also like a copy of his credit card/other accounts to see if he made any 'repairs' during that time.

I heard someone say 200K miles was the payoff point on the Prius, but what if like a lot of people you never make it to 200K miles?

So cars are unlucky, even if they "average" 200K miles of life. Every car of that model is not going to get 200K miles even with proper care.

If I offered a fund where you give me $5K per year for a return of $2 Million in 30 years? Sounds good. Ok, what if I said "You can't touch it before 30 years even if you were willing to take a penalty"?

I'd probably keep the money of 90% of the people.

I seriously doubt the 'average' lifespan of a Prius will end up being

12 years. I said average. I also doubt the 'average' life will be 200K miles, yes I said average.

Everyone has that 'story' of this 'car' that gets 477k miles because they did the right things and took proper care unlike those 'other people'.

1 out of 100 maybe, you and someone else but the others out here aren't going to get those years or miles out of a car.

Which was my point, but you can all tell the fish stories.

No, not really. It is difficult to determine the "break even" point on a Prius because there is no conventionally powered version of the car. My guess is that the break-even point on a Prius vs. a 4 cylinder Camry is around 75,000 miles with gas at $3.00 per gallon. The 2 biggest variables are fuel cost and driving conditions.

There are quite a few Prius with well over 100,000 miles, most notably in Taxi service in NYC. The article I read said that there were no repairs other than normal maintenance.

100,000 miles used to be considered the average life of a passenger vehicle, but 200,000 is very common now.

Bob Brown wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@bbb.org:

If it costs more, it's not "green".

Being "green" means reducing the use of ALL resources, not just the ones you WANT to pay attention to.

Unfortunately, I have not seen any accounting of the use of other resources and the environmental costs of those resources that are used by hybrids.

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote in news:2zHXh.10279$Fs6.2646@trnddc03:

The fact that the cars are expensive to buy (and that Toyota only breaks even on them if they disregard development costs) tells you that hybrids are wasteful of resources.

If a thing is relatively expensive, this can only mean one of two things:

1) profit margins are high, or 2) a tremendous amount of energy is going into the thing.

Maybe not. There are definitely places where a hybrid makes a lot of sense. It seems to me that any driving pattern that involves a lot of stop and go driving is potentially a good place for a hybrid. When we were in Victoria, BC two years ago, I was impressed that many of the taxis were Toyota Priuses. I don't think taxi companies would buy vehicles that were not economically attractive.

I wonder if there is an application for true diesel/electric or gas/electric vehicle that operates more like modern locomotives. It seems to me that once you buy into including a generator and motor set in a car, you might as well go one step further and eliminate the conventional drive train. You could still include batteries to provide "surge" power for qucik acceleration.

Don't forget government policies as an influence. Do you think hybrids would have gotten a foothold in the US if it wasn't for the early tax rebates and CAFE rules? The Prius must have a significant positive impact on Toyota's CAFE numbers.

And if people always bought cars for strictly sensible reasons, there would be no Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Aura, Infiniti, etc....

Ed

3) or, A lot of labor goes into making it.

What is a tremendous amount of energy? Decreasing the energy requirements of a vehicle from 33 mpg to 40 mpg will decrease the use of energy over 100,000 mi from 3000 gal to 2500 gal, a savings of 500 gal of fuel. 500 gal of gasoline is a lot of energy.

Jeff

Yet, even without the Prius and other hybrids, Toyotas are quire fuel efficent compared to the offerings of American car makers. I doubt the impact made any real difference in how Toytota would have done business with regard to regulations about CAFE if it did not have the hybrids.

Not to mentions, far fewer trucks and SUVs.

And, actually, fewer total vehicles.

Jeff

In message news:Xns991D4A3BBEEE0tegger@207.14.116.130, Tegger sprach forth the following:

The Prius is "green" because by paying extra for it, you have less money with which to buy other goods and services, thus reducing productivity, employment, and all those other things that liberals hate.