Can Anything Stop Toyota?

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C. E. White wrote:

I vaguely remember that article now that you mention it. I would have to agree that unless they investigated solely at the molecular level, which they did not, the results would be highly subjective. I am sure there must be other examples on which I would concede. I yield the point.
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Yes. Exactly.
I think Chrysler puts out some sharp looking vehicles. However, as I have learned over time, pretty means nothing when it is sitting on top of a rack being repaired constantly. I've driven the attractive GMs and Chrylsers and Fords. They may look better (debatable) and may be better equipped, but now that I have a wife and two kids I had to soul search and say, "What do I want my family to be out on the road in, A Ford or a Toyota?" As for me, I chose the one that I feel will be safest and most dependable for my family, Toyota.

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A matter of personal priorities...
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That may or may not be true but a Toyota will not be worth anywhere near the difference it the price of driving it home when new. A V6 Toyota costs at least seven to nine thousand more to drive home new than a Taurus, and it it only worth three to five thousand more in two years. CR latest report rates the Buick Regal above the Camry anyway and it too costs less to drive home when new. IMO Toyota has simply priced its stuff out of the market compared to its competitors over the past five years or so. After three Lexus V8's I switched to the Lincoln LS V8 for 25K less. I have found the Lincoln LS to be just as dependable as were any of my Lexus' for a lot less money. To the average buyer the most important question they ask is how much is my monthly payment? Eight thousand dollar adds over $230 to the monthly payment on a three year loan. Buyers that think they will come out ahead on repairs are just kidding themselves. They are learning that Toyotas break down as well and cost a lot more to fix when they do. Go into the Toyota NG and read all the engine, tranny and brake problems and all the grips about rattles and miss fitting dashboards, bad paint etc.. The all build some that are not up to the manufactures standards, that is why they all have a warranty, even Rolls Royce. Have you notice the number of Toyotas on the used car lots of GM and Ford dealerships lately? ;)
mike hunt
AV wrote:

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Well dull uninteresting products is certainly one problem at Toyota. They do a great job of assembling second rate stuff efficiently.
Ed
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Ed... you're sounding a lot like a replacement for "MikeHunt".... defender of the indefensible.
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~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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Give me a break. I never said Toyota did not make good stuff or that they were second rate. The only thing that I have ever said about Toyotas, that one might consider as negative, was that I believe they are over priced. My position has been consistent, from what I see in our business all manufactures today are building good stuff today and the only real difference is style and price. Toyotas makes good stuff but even the buff books say they are for the most part plain and some are even goofy looking. IMO they are all over priced. But hey its your money buy what you wish.
mike hunt
"Philip" wrote:

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In being of bellicose mind

I gave you a break ... by not using your real name! LOL
Toyota is RIGHT priced ... compared to FORD, who is overpriced for the quality delivered. "Quality is still Job 1" at Ford because quality is their biggest obstacle. Read the trade publications like AutoNews. ;-)
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~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

And Mike, not a single person in here said Toyots were cheap either. Oh, as for Toyota, they are second, on the planet! Of course, 1st is reliability.
--








SENATOR ZELL MILLER DEMOCRAT OF GEORGIA, the nation's most prominent
conservative Democrat, said today he will endorse President Bush for
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wrote:

...and juse WHO wants to buy a Crapsler or Ford or GM product at a cheaper price?
BTDT
No Thanks!!
They best know their worth..
Scott in Florida
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Scott in Fla wrote:

Their very top-end products aren't bad and can usually be had a couple of years old at the prices a budget Toyota would cost new. I'll tell you from experience - there's a lot more metal and less cost-shaving in a big Buick than in a budget Corolla or Echo.
IME, big domestic vehicles a couple of sizes and trim levels up are perfect choices compared to the lowest-end imports. Both last about the same length of time, but the ride is much better in the GM/Ford/etc.
Now, make no mistake - versus the larger more expensive imports, like an Avalon or simmilar, it's a no-brainer. Lexus verus a Caddy? Duh.
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snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote in message

The last report on the Regal was in the Jan. 1998 issue.
Where did they say that the Regal was better than the Camry? Their April 2003 auto issue said about the Regal:
"The Regal is an acceptable car, but nothing special compared with its newer, more advanced com petition. Drawbacks include ungainly handling (the optional Gran Touring suspension improves that somewhat) and front seats that become less comfortable the longer you sit in them. On the plus side, the Regal rides well at lower speeds and its cabin is quiet."
In the same issue, they wrote of the Camry:
"The Camry is among our top-rated family cars, with the Honda Accord and Volkswagen (sic) Passat. The new 2.4 liter four is outstanding. Handling is predictable and secure, but midling tire grip limits its capability. Steering response has improved but still feels a bit light."
So how did you come to the opposite conclusion?
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In

A RECENT announcement that Buick Regal eeked out Camry was posted about 8 days ago. Check AutoNews or CR.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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Philip wrote:

I did note the GM to build Cadilacs in China nonsense. Talk about gouging. Chinese made Cadillac - costs them $10K to make over there and sells for the same inflated $50K over here as if they were paying U.S. wages.
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Ahem, it's about sending CKD kits for sale in SE Asia...
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Would it be fair to you to say that high end models subsidize entry level models? Chinese made Caddys would make for a better economy car without raising the retail price commensurately. Hmmmm!
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~~Philip "Never let school interfere
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Philip wrote:

Bull. This is as flawed as "trickle-down economics" The reality is that the shareholders and executives keep the extra money and don't pass it on. With profits shrinking, you can bet they are looking at their jobs more than their product.
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In being of

From time to time Oberlander, you know from "reality." The rest of the time, not.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Yeah, but Cadillac is "union" <trance talk> and you must buy union!
--








SENATOR ZELL MILLER DEMOCRAT OF GEORGIA, the nation's most prominent
conservative Democrat, said today he will endorse President Bush for
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If you put a lot of stock in Consumer Report Ratings, the TOyota are nothing special. Toyota has only a very few first place vehicles. For family designs the Camry, Accord, and Passat are tied (hard to believe that anyone would buy a car that was only as good as a VW). The only US car listed in this category is the Taurus. It is listed as good (almost very good, but not quite). The Avalon is the top rated "large sedan" but is virtually in a dead heat with the Buick Park Avenue. I can't imagine anyone confusing an Avalon with a large sedan, but that is the way Consumer Reports sees it. To me it is just a stretched Camry. I can't imagine anyone that wanted a large sedan like the Park Avenue would go anywhere near the Toyota lot. In CRs small car ratings the Ford Focus and Honda Civic are ahead of the Corolla. The Toyota Echo is near the bottom of the "fuel efficent car list" (they don't have the Pirus listed - yet). In the sporty car category, the Focus SVT is tops, the Celica is mid-pack behind a host of others. The MR2 is mid-pack in the "roadster" category. The Matrix is below average for the small wagon/hatchback category (well behind the Focus SE wagon). The Sienna is the top scoring mini-van, but essentially in a dead heat with the Odyssey. The RAV-4 was out scored by the Forrester in the mini-SUV category. In the compact truck rating, the Explorer SPort Trac was number one. The Tacoma was mid-pack. The Tundra was outscored by the Silverado in the large truck category. None of the various Toyota SUV scored particuarly well in the SUV category (number one was Audi Allroad - I've never seen one, but I don't consider this to be an SUV). CR scored the Sequoia Limited and Suburban essentially the same.
Admittedly, none of the Toyta products was at the bottom of any category. However, Ford had as many vehicle that rated number one in a category as Toyota did.
Persoanlly I don't put much faith in CR ratings. They look for different things in a car than I do. They have alway tended to prefer dull, uninteresting cars. Becasue of this I was not surprised the Camry is a favorite of theirs.
I did not see anything that said they preferred the Regal over the Camry. However, I did see that in the reliability raings, for 2001, 2002, and 2003 Regals had more solid red dots than Camrys. Again, I don't but much faith in CRs reliability ratings, but i do think it indicated that Toyota is nothing special.
I wonder why people buy Toyotas in exactly the same way I wonder why people buy hamburgers at McDonalds. They aren't particualrly cheap and they aren't particualrly good, but people line up to buy them - go figure.
Regards,
Ed White
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