I was watching CBS news last Friday. One segment was talking about the
increase in car sales in April. They said the yearly rate would be
something like 12 million cars assuming the sales increase is
maintained. Later they were talking about car ads and the amount of
money spent on ads. The segement claimed that in 2010 somewhere
between 14 to 16 Billion dollars would be spent on car ads. They
weren't clear on whether that included local dealership ads, but even
if it does, it seems like a lot of money. It is over $1,100 per new
car. I suppose you might spread it over used cars also, but still it
seems like a lot of money per car in ads.
That's about right. That includes both automakers and dealers. I don't
know if it includes what the automakers and sometimes dealers use to
attend auto shows like the NY Auto & Detroit auto showsand, but I
suspect it does.
-> This is
through 2008, but you get the picture.
And think, much of it is taxpayers money from GM & Chrysler.
Be interesting to see the actual per vehicle cost per model. Good cars
sell themselves an say 16 billion over 12 million cars, knocking $1333
off the price might go further would be average. But I suspect they
advertise slow movers more.
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.
Another way to look at this - Car ads are paying for some of my
favorite TV programs. I think Toyota alone paid enough to cover the
cost of braodcasting the NCAA Final Four Basketball Games last
Saturday. Seemed like every other commercial was from Toyota, with
Ford covering at least another third. Throw in a few from GM and
Subaru and there was no time left for deodarant commercials.
It seems like Beer and Car Ads are paying for most of my "free"TV.
It is inevitable autos are imported like PCs, TVs, iPods, furnature,
toys, kitchen anything...etc...
Two huge reasons. First is net household incomes are down big time.
Less money for autos. More taxes coming too. No pricing elasticity for
any NA auto maker.
Even GM will import most autos if they get away from being Government
Motors. DC will sell GM as DC is starting to feel the debts curse.
I know I will not buy UAW/CAW after they sold out fellow tax paying
workers with the bailout gouge.
Kia did real good in March sales too as people are discovering they are
good cars and more afordable than many a big names.
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.
so how is it that toyota can manufacture vehicles in n.a., using locally
sourced n.a. componentry, and make a profit, but g.m. can't?
how is it that g.m. can manufacture in europe at a profit using european
sourced componentry, significantly higher labor costs and higher
infrastructure costs, but they can't in n.a.?
wtf do our politicians think they're doing bailing out a dinosaur that
can't manage their way out of a wet paper bag and who then turn around
and outsource their jobs and component supply to a communist
dictatorship that ignores human rights, slaughters political dissidents,
and steals our intellectual property?
I believe that if you include only "direct" costs, GM does manufacture
vehicles at a profit. They just don't make enough per vehicle to cover
all the overhead costs (pensions, benefits, interest, etc.).
Not all Toyota are produced in the US and even the ones that are don't
use 100% US sourced componets. The highest domestic content Toyota is
the Sienna, which is about 85% doemstic content. The non-hybrid Camrys
are about 75% domestic content. Depsite all youer hyperbolic claims
with regards to out sourcing, GM still has the highest average
domestic content for US sold vehicles of any of the major auto
manufacturers. It is irrational for you to praise Toyota for the
domestic content of its US vehicle and then turn around a trash GM for
building vehicles with a higher average level of domestic content. It
is clear you have an axe to grind with GM. It is also clear that you
don't care about the truth.
In the US, Toyota has lower labor costs and is not saddled with the
pension costs for retired UAW workers. Toyota was not as dependent on
the revenues from SUVs and Trucks as was the case for GM. Neither is
Toyota as dependent on US revenue as is GM. When the SUV/Truck market
in particular, and the auto market in general, crashed, Toyota was not
as badly hit as GM, although like GM, they went to their home (Japan)
government for financial assistance. And like GM, Toyota benefited
immensely from various US and Local Government auto subsidies (cash
for clunkers, hybrid rebates, tax breaks for plants, etc).
Loaning money to GM was not a great idea. But even worse was the way
the US Government eventually nationalized GM and gave it to the UAW.
Maybe it will work out, but I can't see how it was legal. The
Government should have let GM go into bankruptcy. But they didn't.
GM has been losing money in Eurpoe for at least the last 2 years .
Unfortunately it is hard to find the GM annual reports for 2009 and
2008 on line. They seem to be lost between the new "GM" and the old
"GM" (now Motors Liquidation Corp).
How is GM any different than Toyota? Toyota and it subsiduaries have
set up numerous plants in China. Why is it OK for Toyota to operate in
China and not for GM to do the same? Have you checked the labels on
many things you buy lately? Do you trash any manufactuer who uses
Chinese made parts in the items they sell? If so, the list of
comapnies you are attacking must be very long indeed.
I don't have a client, so this statment is ridiculous.
How many US companies aren't importing at least some items from China?
Do you attack any company doing buisness in China? I'll bet
significant portions of the very computer you are using to post to
usenet were made in China. Maybe you should stop supporting the
Chinese by smashing your computer now...
Robbing is bit strong. Are you for or against free trade? Should the
US Government erect trade barrier to prevent the importation of
foreign auto components?
On the one hand you attack GM for bad management and taking US
Government loans. On the other hand you don't want them to source
components form the low cost suppleirs. Do you think GM buys parts in
China becasue they like the Chinese?
I'd prefer to buy US made items and do so when possible. Unfortunately
it is very difficult to do in many cases (clothes, electronics).
I still don't see how you can attack GM and then praise Toyota, when
Toyota is repsonible for moving far more jobs offshore than GM is.
I am not in favor of this. However, as I keep pointing out Toyota has
also benefited from US government subsidies.
And you know this how? I see you finally found your caps shift key.
Printing something in all caps doesn't make it true. But even if true,
it is a difference without a distinction. Both companies are operating
in China. Both companies are supporting all the horrors you associate
with China. Whether some of the parts Toyota is making in China are
shipped to the US or not is irrelevant (but I think it is very
unlikely that Toyota is not importing parts from China). Toyota's
operations in China are supporting the same country you trash GM for
supporting. Your position on this (ie. Toyota's actions compared to
GM's) is both hypocritical and irrational. .
And GM has? I am pretty sure that for most of the last 20 yers GM has
paid significant US income taxes. GM dealers have paid more. Income
and SS Taxes on GM workers have been significant. Sales taxes on GM
vehciles are significant, etc., etc., etc. I suspect if you add up all
the government revenue associated with GM produced vehicles it exceeds
the recent loans to GM. I can't prove it, but I know you cannot prove
And Toyota has been getting significant tax breaks for at least the
last 14 years if you include all the incentives from various states to
Toyota to induce Toyota to locate plants in their jurisdictions. The
recentl hybrid tax credits were essentially a subsidy to Toyota. The
cash for clunkers program was a nother subsidy that benefited Toyota
I should know better than to respond to you comments, but I just
can't stand to sit by and watch you spew your vennon without
commenting.. I know you'll never admit your comments are inspired by
some sort of insane and itrrational hatered of GM, but at least others
might understand you are spiteful, irrational (at least with regards
to GM) and narrow minded.
you don't shill for g.m. ed? don't they pay you for all that hard work
you do in office hours?
how many are doing it at the taxpayer expense ed?
actually, i buy american wherever i reasonably can. and i let vendors
ed, on this you have a point. but i'll ask you - where is the strategic
sense in allowing all our "domestic" manufacturers to use cheap
exploited labor in china? not only does it prop up a despotic regime
that threatens our allies, it's also not exactly smart to have every
p.c. the department of trade and defense departments using hardware that
comes rootkitted from factory. motorola proved that. boeing are doing
their best to follow.
no it's not. if i'm paying someone to take my job away, "rob" is not
only apt, it's probably somewhat of an understatement.
i'm absolutely against having foreign auto components imported from a
despotic regime at taxpayer expense and at the cost of american jobs.
yes i do. and because they, like you ed, have zero moral integrity. if
toyota can make cars in the u.s. from u.s. components, and do so
profitably, then so can g.m. just like they do in high-cost locations
like europe. end of story.
that they lack the will or political incentive is a matter for our
elected representatives to be made aware of in no uncertain terms.
then you need to shop around ed. i do.
eh? so when toyota set up factories in kentucky [etc], that's moving
american jobs "offshore"??? that's pretzel logic, ed. pretzel logic.
to the tune of $30+ billion??? and still export their component
sourcing to china? i don't think so ed.
utter bullshit. for the n-th time, china won't let you sell in their
market unless you manufacture there. it's so they can steal our designs
and processes. and that doesn't mean you have to manufacture for your
u.s. markets there like g.m. does.
btw, the japanese, partly because of their history with china, and
partly because they seem to be a good deal smarter than the u.s., don't
manufacture anything "competitive" there, only the cheap crap they don't
mind having stolen.
1. see above.
2. toyota is not exporting american jobs to china at american taxpayer
expense. g.m. is.
then you're conveniently ignorant of the facts ed!
eh? don't you ever read your client's public accounts? g.m. have done
nothing but whine for subsidy, concession and favor for decades. it's
and g.m. doesn't??? that's bullshit.
cash for clunkers was engineered by your client - g.m. the fact that
g.m. had nothing but crap to sell and flopped miserably is not toyota's
astroturfing is "commenting"??? in a strictly first amendment sense of
the word, i suppose it is, but on a moral level, to shill for the
company that is driving the chinese trojan horse deep into the heart of
american society at taxpayer expense is utterly disgusting. you should
yeah, i'm "irrational" and narrow minded - i want my tax dollars to work
for americans, not chinese despots that are selling missiles to our
enemies, stealing our jobs, stealing our technology and intellectual
property, hacking our government networks and those of american
businesses like microsoft and google, and are threatening our allies.
i'm old-fashioned like that.
You have no idea what my office hour are. And who's dime are you posting
your triades on? You post more often and more regularly than I do. And you
seem to have a no track message anti-GM, protect Toyota agenda. My guess is
that you are some low level grunt stuck in the back room of a failing
company and you are striking out at GM becasue they dumped your company as a
supplier. aybe Toyota is still buying form you for now...but when Toyota
figures out you are dependent on their buisness, look out...
Probably all of them, since the US isn't getting tax revenue from the
producers and workers making the Chinese, Japanese, Phillipine, Thai,
Brazilian, etc. componets.
Actually I agree with you. Fix it. When it comes to sending jobs to China,
GM doesn't hold a candle to electroincs and computer companies, textile
So you are goign to lanch a hate filled attack on Toyota for importing
complete vehicles that include no doemstic content at all? How many American
jobs were lost when my Mother,Sisters,and SO bought Japanese built vehicles
(three RAV4's and 1 Highlander) instead of Escapes and Edeges?
This is the sort of ridiculous statement that makes you look like an idiot.
As I have pointedout numerous times, GM has not made money in Eurpoe since
around 2007. And Toyota only uses some US components. The average Toyota is
only about 70% "domestic" these days (it has actually gone down for the last
couple of years). Many Toyota models have little or no domestic content. The
most "domestic" Toyota is the Sienna, and it is only has about 85% domestic
OK, but you need to start with the worst offenders. And GM isn't even close
compared to almost any company in the computer or electroics industry. Heck,
even the building supply companies are worse than GM...I hope you don't have
any of that Chinese made drywall. And when you get the anti-free tradeball
rolling, don't be surprised if Toyota is a target.
And yet you buy Hondas....
I do to, but I am often shocked how hard it is to find non-chinese items. I
needed bearing for my grain drill last year. I had two choices, "chinese"
bearings and supposedly US made bearings. The US made bearings turned out to
be Japanese...go figure. The only disc opener blades available came from
Brazil, and it took be 6 months to get those.
A higher percentage f Toyota componets come from offshore than is the case
for GM. If you care about maintaining US jobs, you should purchase cars with
the highest possible domestic content, which is GM on average.
You have no basis for this claim. What is the number one selling brand name
in China...I think it is Buick. GM is doing exactly the same sorts of things
in China as Toyota is.
And exactly what sort of high technology stuff is GM manufacturing in China?
Meanwhile Toyota and its subsiduaries have factories manufacturing, amng
automotive fuel injection componets
diesel injection systems
batteies for hybrid vehicles
If you want to confrm this visit the Toyota and Denso corporate web sites
and learn the facts.
Not bullshit. You are irrational and hypocritical.
You have zero basis for this claim.
No, I am not. You clearly hope I am, since you depend on the ignorance of
others to spread your hateful message. In 2005 GM paid 215 million in US
(state and federal) income taxes. In 2004 157 million. In 2003 731 million.
In 2002 $644 million. etc, etc., etc. Millions (billions) ore were paid in
property taxes, social security taxes, sales taxes, etc. Millions more were
paid in overseas income taxes each year.
Any references? Has GM asked for anything that other companies haven't "for
Not to the extent that Toyota has benefited from plant location incentives.
For sure, GM, like most companies, extorts as much money from local
governments as possible. But I was not claiming that GM didn't benefit from
such programs, I was just pointing out that Toyota has also benefited from
Government give away programs.
Toyota was a supporter of the program as well. In fact I think every car
company and car dealer in America was behind the program. I suppose Obama
was behind similar programs in Europe and Japan as well.
I'd like to know what sort of warped world you live in. No compnay would
waste a dime on arguing with a putz like you. And I really should stop. If
you were merely an ignorant fool, then maybe I could show you the light, but
you are a spiteful narrow minded ignorant fool with an axe to grind.
I think you should be ashamed because of your ridiculous hypocrisy. You are
perfectly willing to excuse Toyota's invvolvement with the Chinese by making
irrational excuses, while attacking GM for nothing more than buying
components from the lowest cost suppliers.
No you are a hypocritical fool. No matter what you claim, the fact is, GM
cars on average contain a hgher percentage of domestically produced
components than do the average Toyota cars. And while the Japanese may be
our allies today, that wasn't true 75 years ago, and might not be true five
years from now.
i know that you're pretty damned reliable posting here 9-5 m-f.
complete with your diligently interned stats and "research".
my own ed.
not in office hours ed.
weasel words ed - i'm actually not "pro" toyota. but i sure am anti
g.m. exporting american jobs at taxpayer expense.
no ed, you're the one that needs to look out - you'll get burned alive
in your own trojan horse.
ah yes, the list of american companies living on ±$30bn american
taxpayer bailouts and exporting their jobs to japan, the philippines,
thailand and brazil is long and illustrious. oh, wait, it's not. and
none of those countries are despotic regimes that sell missiles to our
enemies or steal our intellectual property. unlike g.m. exporting jobs
to china at taxpayer expense.
if we want to throw money about, we should use it to fund automation
investment, keep all production stateside, and keep all our
technology/industrial muscle at home. if you have a shred of integrity
left, go see your beltway buddies and make it happen ed.
Good question. Better management, less union, better design, better
reputation making for better pricing.
Lack of NA management and no UAW/CAW. More automation. Better local
business practices with suppliers. Stricter (although still inadaquate)
pension and benefits maangement.
Don't ask me. I only have a theory and it goes like this. Lots of the
heads of these are Harvard boys.
Barack Obama - US President, head of the biggest debtor of them all.
Michael Ignatieff - LPC Leader, wants more debt and taxes, pro bailout.
Rick Wagoner - Former GM CEO, bankrupt.
Robert Nardelli - Chrysler CEO, bankrupt.
Stephen Feinberg - Cerberus/Chrysler and GMAC, bankrupt.
I call them the Harvard Bailout Boyz. All were very much all for
bailouts. But to know why I believe there is a link is Carlyle's client
list. Remember Carlyle also got Lehmann assets at firesale prices which
had a GM component to it. What is with Carlyle?
Bush Sr. and Dan Quayle come to mind for starters. But there are others
but the names escape me. But one important one is Osama Bin Laden's
brother in Saudi Arabia. Ever wonder why Osama, sorry, Obama bowed so
perfectly when in Saudi Arabia? Or perhaps why Bush never could get
Osama Bin Laden? Maybe why Obama doesn't go after Osama?
Unions, they were just pawns, used like pawns too. They get a lot of
heat, but willing they were to sellout fellow taxpayers for the
perception of jobs. Sure helped the Canadian third string NDP
(socialist/union) party try to bribe the Bloc party for their votes in
parliament for a NDP/Lib/Bloc coupe d'etat. Fortuantely that failed as
Harpo Conservative caved in and added to GM's & Chrysler's bailout.
Also wrote off $500M of Chryslers tax debt, pretty heavly load of
corruption for the Canadian tax base.
I do believe there are influences going on revolving around money. Ask
yourself why some banks got bailouts and others didn't? Who were their
clients? Heck, if I have a billion on deposit with a bankrupt bank you
can bet your boots I would be calling senators, congress people and the
president. I am sure if my last name was Buffet, Gates, Rockerfeller,
Walton and a list of others I would get the presidents ear for 5
minutes. And what is $2 million to "contribute" around to assure your
uninsured bank account does not discipate in DC red ink.
Bush Jr started this (remember his dad's ties with Carlyle and needing a
job post election), Obama was swiftly brought in as Mr Fast Track to the
top and carried the bailout torch well... can't let honest Palin see the
book, OMG... What would happen if internal DC bad doings went public?
Then there is the masonic thing, but will leave it up to you.
Just a theory, would make a good fiction suspense movie though.
Liberal-statism is an addiction to other peoples money.
that doesn't explain it. g.m. have been making profits on their well
managed and well run european operations, and european pension/health
care costs [along with virtually every other cost too] are /way/ higher
Yet, GM is not making a ton of money in Europe, either. IIRC, around
2006, they were making a bit of a profit in Europe to help offset their
losses in the US, but not any more.
In Europe, there is plenty of competition, including from Asian brands.
And more to come.
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