Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half!

"There is none so blind, as he who will not see!" John, I don't have to discredit the messenger. He/she has already done a good job of that him/her self. But then, I wouldn't expect you to check the source of posts made for questionable purposes John. You obviously believe everything you read! A simple Google of "Nomen Nescio " reveals no less than 997 hit-and-run posts to NG's and sites around the world. See for yourself - and learn! Apology accepted John - if you're man enough. ;-)

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Reply to
StingRay
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And whose fault is that?

a) MBA's and accountants who dumbed down the production line.

Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.

Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half a century ago.

b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison themselves.

c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places? it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you will hear a far off song.

Reply to
treeline12345

You folks ought to read some history. Do you really think that companies like to give you a paid vacation, sick days, paid medical? Paid medical, notice that when unions clout began to erode out came the HMO? Prior it was a comprehensive program where you could go to any doctor you wanted to see. Now they control that. Where the heck do you think the 40hour week came from? Union men and woman fought and some died to get you the benefits you enjoy today. Do some unions suck yup. but some do a hell of a job. You might want to think where you'd be without unions, also where you will be if they are gone. We have started down that slippery slope.imho

Roy

Reply to
Roy

Someone wrote: "b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison themselves."

I would agree with some of your comments but not all. First is teachers union made it hard to get rid of teachers once tenure was put in place.

I do have to disagree with cop unions. Most were reinstated by civil service boards that are made up of the corrupt city officials friends.

On your comments a unions did not help is totally untrue. Having worked in both union and non union locations, I can tell you that I been treated better in union locations then non union locations. Safety conditions are better in union shops then non union shops I worked in. Union have lost more then they gained.

Have you every sat in on negotiations? The first thing on a unions wish list is not wages but better working conditions and benefits. It is not the union fault health care is so high. It is all of our fault for not taking better care of ourselves. It is the fault of lawsuits that don't need to be filed.

People formed unions to getter better working conditions then to get better wages. Delphi is asking workers to go from roughly 28.00 dollars and hour to 14 dollars and hour, give up their health insurance benefits and retirement benefits. Delphi wants to cut retiree benefits and only pay a pension.

They are not the only company wanting to do this. I work for a major chemical company. They did not ask us to take a pay cut but want us to pay more for our medical insurance. Presently they pay 80% and we pay 20%. They want to step it back to 70% company and 30% employee and drop medical on all future retirees. We rejected this idea because the company right now is making record profits and they are asking us to pay more. The CEO just got a 45 % pay raise. His profit sharing bonus is at 25% while ours is only

4% of our base salary plus 4% for all overtime pay.

Unions only ask that profits should benefit the low hourly workers as they do upper management.

If you that concerned about this countries future then buy from American companies that still have people working in this country and not from companies that ship a finish product here. Buy union made products.

Union Proud Union Made

Member of PACE local 4-750

Sarge

Reply to
Sarge

Agreed

Hopefully, their GM pensions (and mine) will be safe.

Amen

We once had a guy that was fired 18 times in 17 years for drunkenness. The Union got him back every time. They got him transferred to another plant in the hope that a change of scenery, and management, would help him. I never heard how it worked out.

And don't forget to make the numbers look good, so the big guys get their bonuses.

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Reply to
David Starr

Bert Rutan? The guy that designed & built the rocket powered space plane? He designs some of the wierdest looking airplanes you've ever seen, and they fly like a dream. Sure would like to see what he could do designing a complete car.

Everyone in the plant I worked in was sent to Deming classes. Upper management then decided that's not the way we want to do business & kept going as usual.

There's no incentive to do a good job. The goof-offs get the same money as the hard workers. Ride the good horse and ignore the bad ones. When you ride him into the ground, find another good horse.

In DC they wear suits. :-)

It's not all that far away now.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site:

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Reply to
David Starr

I goofed. MacReady was the engineer who made the first man-powered flight. Rutan is another engineer with the prize for the first private rocket dual flight.

Reply to
treeline12345

True.

True but I have seen some cop unions go out of the way for corrupt cops.

What comments? I agree with you about unions in the past. Presently, the unions are not as corrupt as management but it's a tough call but the unions are a little less corrupt. But you're right here. Unions let people get out of third world conditions where their lives are so much fodder for the bean counters.

When I last interacted with union organizing to a little degree, I was surprised. The board of directors was lined with the union leader's family. Nice cushy $70,000 a year job being a "trustee." Not bad. And the gritty address for the union was a phony front. They were located in a suburban setting with locks on all doors. I am not surprised that Walmart is winning.

The last union I belonged to was sold out in a sweetheart deal so nope, I never sat in. This was a local of the infamous Teamster's which was so corrupt it was put out of business. The head of the union was like a little mafia character, you're a bright boy, he told me, you ask a lot of questions. He was annoyed that I pointed out that he forced the union to take a cut!!! in wages for the pensioners when the federal government guarantees pensions!!! Needless to say, everything went down the tubes.

I try but it's difficult. Management is usually ruthless MBA's. And the unions - I have a lot of trouble with their street attitudes. One is corrupt. The other is stupid. And I recently tried again with a very famous national union to do some organizing for them.

Reply to
treeline12345

On 10/11/05 08:13 am TheSnoMan tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Our previous primary care physician agreed the the US should have a national healthcare system like most civilized countries, but said it would be difficult to implement because too many people have their hands in the cookie jar.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

You are kidding right? Be careful what you wish for, as they say, you might get your wish. Currently it is a buyers market for vehicles, keeping new vehicle prices in check, because there is more capacity to build more vehicles then there are buyers in the US. GM sells over 30% of all the vehicles in the US, nearly a third more than Ford and three times as many as the number three manufacture, Toyota. If GM went under the demand would far exceed the available production effecting economies of scale and the price of vehicles would skyrocket at least 25% or more. Those hurt the most would be those that buy econoboxes, vehicles that are currently subsidized by larger cars and trucks far more profitable vehicle sales. In addition the corporate and personal income taxes lost, federal and state taxpayers would have to absorb most of the cost of pensions, unemployment and bankruptcies etc for those hundreds of thousands of employees that work for GM, it suppliers and it dealers that would be out of a job..

mike hunt

"Larry Crites" wrote in message news:N snipped-for-privacy@bresnan.com...

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Get real, who told you that unions are the problem, you boss at Wal-Mart? Toyotas sell for more on average then competitive cars made by GM and Ford and their nonunion employees are paid less and receive less desirable benefits and pensions. The fact is less than 14% of all the workers in the US belong to a union and more than half that do, work for the various governments who are outside the competitive marketplace. Our problems start and end with our own buying habits.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Actually that is not true, based on all the available facts. The average personal income and the average family income is the US for all segments, poor, middleclass, upper middleclass and the rich are all up, not down, since the nineties. Same is true of the recent tax cuts. Income to the federal treasury is UP, not down, since the nineties. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The consumer can stop that if that is what you believe happed. Don't buy foreign goods or product assemble in the US of foreign parts, like Toyotas etc.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Federal traffic controllers were fired for violating their CONTRACT. Like many union contracts they had a no strike clause. Unions represent employees and unions have only ONE right in that contract and that is the right to force the employers to abide by the terms of that contract or pay a price when they do not, period. Unions have no right to violate that contract or they pay a price as well.. The union was advised by President Ragan that if they violated their contract they would be fired, they chose to go out on strike anyway and were fired.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Yup, it's not a good feeling knowing that.

Who's the cat in your picture? A baby leopard? For a moment he looked like one of those half-wild Asian cats that make pets but this one looks truly annoyed and feral. It's the first pix. The tigers I can figure out :) I haven't done any 4x5 since I dropped a whole bunch in a tank and ruined everything.

Reply to
treeline12345

One hears stories like that all the time but management can fire, or demote any union workers not performing their job up to the skill level required by the contract to hold that job. If someone like that is on the job it is a management problem. A union can not protect a worker who does not do his job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does not report off, steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop you should know that.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

On 10/11/05 01:30 pm David Starr tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Q. What's the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic? A. An alcoholic still has to go to Board meetings.

IOW, the big wheels with an alcohol problem typically got off much more easily than the "rank and file": the former got sent for counseling, the latter got fired. Maybe the "rank and file" are now getting treated more like the big wheels in that respect.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

Mike Hunter wrote: "One hears stories like that all the time but management can fire, or demote any union workers not performing their job up to the skill level required by the contract to hold that job. If someone like that is on the job it is a management problem. A union can not protect a worker who does not do his job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does not report off, steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop you should know that."

Amen

If management does do a piss poor job of following their own rules and documenting an employees actions prior to firing him, then they left themselves open to having to rehire the person including give him back pay. This happens in both union shops and non-union shops.

Sarge PACE Local 4-750

Reply to
Sarge

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in news:zpX2f.11195$ snipped-for-privacy@fe03.lga:

I have worked both on the floor and around middle and upper management, Bub! Believe me, a druggie or drunk is not tolerated long where he has no union protection. Another little difference... the drunk is often operating heavy machinery...IOW like being around a drunk driver for an eight hour shift.

After work, alla same.

And what's this "now"? I saw plenty of it in the sixties.

Reply to
Backyard Mechanic

Reply to
TheSnoMan

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