I wouldn't worry much about that. A Bankruptcy court has total and complete
authority over all company operations, and can legally void any contract it
And that includes the golden parachute contracts that self-serving execs
Once a company goes banko all the investors know they will not get even
principal investment back, and that anything they can convince the
court to cut will result in less of a loss for them. And execs that
company into bankruptcy aren't easily going to find another job. There's
more execs out there available who can raid the company coffers just as
You can blame the American manufactures all you want but the problems in
this county are caused by the consumer. The problem is domestics
manufacture have to compete with foreign manufactures who can build their
vehicles in other countries that have far lower wages and far less costly
government regulations on how they must run their business. In addition
they need to compete with those foreign manufactures, like Toyota, who
merely assemble their vehicle in the US, using lower paid workers who
receive fewer benefit, of mostly lower cost imported parts. The greed of
the American consumer had led them to buy more and more lower cost imported
products yet expect to continue to garner higher American wages and
benefits. Something has to give. Unlike Japanese consumers, who support
their own economy, the American consumers in their greed are not likely to
support American manufactures by paying higher prices to maintain their own
economy. American manufacture more and more are being forced to do what the
consumer is doing by going to those same sources to lower their cost of
making their products. If American consumers are willing to buy foreign
goods over American made goods they are going to be forced to accept lower
wages from their employers, or worse, they will see their employer go out of
business or move their production to lower priced countries, as well.. If
American corporations start building their products off shore, as well, at
least we will still have American corporations paying federal cooperate
income taxes on the profits made in the US. That is far better than some
foreign company taking all of their profits out of the county along with the
American jobs, as is currently the case. Middle class Americans better soon
wake up or the only thing your grandchildren will need to know to get a job
is how to say 'Do you want fries with that?' or 'Welcome to Wal-Mart.'
I blame the absolute greed of the uaw worker, they put themselves in this
predicament. Does someone putting a nut on a bolt deserve $27/hr plus
enough O.T to make 6 figures a year? F no. I feel for the real skilled
workers in this country struggling to survive, not the overpaid uaw worker.
When you have janitors making $100K a year something is going to give.
Then who would have the money to purchase the goods and services supplied by a
good portion of the country? Who will eat out 4 times a week when they make
$10.00 per hour? Who will buy new cars? Who will buy more that the barest
necessities? Put GM out of business and the effects will be felt everywhere.
When everything is outsourced, who will have the money to buy anything?
Look at it this way. Who is the largest employer where you live? If they went
out of business, what would be the effect in your area?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
Web Site: www.destarr.com
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Good healthy thread.
Health Insurance, Canada, Unions and the UAW.
As much as I'd like to blame this current President, he's got *nothing* to
do with it.
But, cannot say greed and the consumer are really what's at play. That's a
Get real, who told you that unions are the problem, you boss at Wal-Mart?
Toyotas sell for more on average then competitive cars made by GM and Ford
and their nonunion employees are paid less and receive less desirable
benefits and pensions. The fact is less than 14% of all the workers in the
US belong to a union and more than half that do, work for the various
governments who are outside the competitive marketplace. Our problems
start and end with our own buying habits.
Follow the reply trail and think about what it really means... we're in a
global economy and if we want to SELL our goods we have to play through
It IS NOT the union wages, however that is sinking the old-line ship, it
the union productivity in large part. it's the generous HS diploma to
grave benefits on the other hand.
Where ELSE but in the heyday sixties could a kid graduate HS, get a job,
then get married, buy a house car and boat all in the next five years...
sounds too good to be true and it was.
Part of our great standard of living is that we DO get cheap goods.
There's a price to pay on either end.
Those that carp about the foreign content in American assembled vehicles
will seem to never be happy. Look at the parts production Honda moved
Look, my family is GREATLY affected by this, but trotting out all the old
buzz doesnt help a damn thing.
Gov't debt is higher now than in the 60's.
Medical care that can be given to people today is more specific, more
effective, and MORE EXPENSIVE than what was available 50 years ago
(even if people aren't living a whole lot longer now than 50 years
ago, their senior years are certainly more expensive).
And there are simply more people now vs 50 years ago.
We are telling ourselves that the more people there are, the more our
cities grow, the better life will be.
It's a fiction. Taxes go up even when forests are mowed down and
thousands of homes go up.
Life (in north america at least) does not get better with more
people. Infrastructure costs grow disproportionately. More people
need more jobs, more schools, more food, more ENERGY.
It will always take more taxpayers to support the social infracture of
the current population. It's a spiral that is out of control.
Hundreds of thousands of immigrants are needed in North America each
year to create the tax-base needed to support the current
And in future years those immigrants will need even more immigrants.
There is no concept of trying to achieve a stable population level.
It's always got to be more. More and more. There must always be
growth. That concept is even embraced by religion. It's certainly
embraced by policitians at all levels of gov't.
The promise that life gets better when there are more taxpayers, when
there are more people, is false. It is proven every year, with every
strike, with every increase in property taxes, in sales taxes. We go
to war to make sure we have the oil to support ourselves, and we
delude ourselves that it was for another reason.
By what measure? % of GDP is the one that counts.. but you may be right.
But they ARE living a LOT longer and yes it is more expensive to let them
live longer... so euthansia?
More people producing more and buying.more.. a wash..
Uh yeah... because folks demand more services, and environmental needs
are far more complicated, sewer rates being excellent example
We could limit birth to one child/family
Are you sure?
That does not necessarily follow... it MAY be in growing expectatioons of
Social services and environemtnal and personal protection
If you look at the costs... even at 1/5 the actual money US actually
spent, it would have been FAR better deal to do what Chirac did... make
an under the table deal for Iraqi oil.
- in fact, there were rumors and innuendo that the US TRIED that... if
the charges could have been proven there would have been hell to pay!
But then Cheney et al would be facing charges for that instead of the
French and Russian guys.
You really need to read between the lines of the news instead of
swallowing kool-aid wholesale.
The REAL news is right here on Pravda...
Note that the Euro's keep saying their economy problems are due to
population stagnation... yet they are running 12 % unemployment.
What's our unemployment?
What's the difference? Yep... social services and govt red tape.
the Delphi news isnt good, but we've been through that sort of thing
Go peddle your sky-is-falling crap somewhere else!
It ain't sky is falling crap. The resources of the Earth are finite. Raw
materials are finite. This is what Entropy is all about.
Every time we manufacture another car we lose a bit of the steel
that goes into it, due to corrosion over the life of the car. So even
if we have 100% and perfect reclamation of all cars, we still need
tons of new steel every year to keep the cycle going. That steel
comes from a mine, and each year that mine is dug deeper, until
the vein is played out. Then the process repeats with another
One day far in the future all those mines will be played out. We will
still have all the steel we ever dug up - but now it will be in the form
of itty-bitty bits of rust scattered all over the face of the Earth.
Well, we could reclaim that, probably by distilling large quantities of
seawater. But the process is ten times more expensive than just
digging up the ore.
And this problem affects -every single- mineral on the Earth that
we use as raw material. Every time we suck an oil well dry, or
dig out a vein of ore in a mine, or whatever else, we make it more
and more expensive to get the same thing again.
Thus it is a given that it is impossible to support a continually
increasing human population. It may also be impossible to
forever support a technological population.
Remember the Earth supported a hunter-gatherer population of
humans for something like 12 million years. It's quite obvious that
that model of living is sustainable. However the Earth has supported a
technological population of humans for something like 200 years.
It's nowhere near obvious that this living model is at all sustainable.
Which has been said, relying on best data and methods available, for over
one hundred years...
1. The higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate - thus
population increase slows
2. Assuming we NEED all that steel... not at all evident, MEANTIME..
3. Check the amount of shale oil, check oil reserves untouched, check use
of oil vs synthetic from other sources - most renewable.
The fallacy is that most doomsayers choose to decry the techno-society
for depletion of resources yet in that techo-society lies the hope, not
to mention the proven benefit to quality of life.
Yes, EVERYONE has a part in that... even the tree huggers. Raising the
issues, however false their conclusion spurs innovation. Going
overboard, however, in artificial restraint of use or development
certainly isnt the answer.
As to your hunter-gatherer population being 'sustainable'... that part
isnt even well thought out. It is the LEAST sustainable of all the
Birthrate may have dropped in the US but population increase has not.
I used steel as an example as that is easily understood. You apparently
missed the point about entropy.
It isn't that the steel has been depeleted, it is that it's in a far less
extract form. There are other resources that are much scarcer that are
much more esoteric that will run out long before iron does.
That's why it worked for 12 million years. What did you think humans
were doing before the emergence of tool-use. Or are you one of the
Adam and Eve people?
It didnt 'work' for 12 million years! It HUNG ON for 12 million years!
Until man EVOLVED, if you want to look at it that way.
Your point is either escaping me or wraps back on itself.
I cant figger out whether you advocate a return to primitivism or what!
MY POINT is that man has learned to overcome the obstacles put before
him; which the 'hunter-gatherer could not.. Thus the extinctions of
whole 'communities' to use the modern term for Neanderthals et al.
I am not advocating a return to primitivism. With the current human
would be impossible anyway since the Earth has long since passed the point
which primitivism could support the total human population.
What I am explaining that you seem to be missing is that the human specie
problem when the systems that are setup which sustain it are not
These can be technical systems or even political systems.
Look at political systems for a second. A dictatorship is unsustainable as
system because it depends on one man, and gains legitimacy through force -
means that any one of the population it is governing can morally kill the
take his place. That makes for constant violent power struggles which spawn
wars. Sustained technological growth, or civilization as we know it cannot
this environment since there's no possible way to do any kind of long term
projects or anything large like that. China for example is constructing the
largest dam on the Yangtee river - well in a country in which civil war is a
that could not happen because that dam would be a military target, and if
out it would be destroyed and kill millions through flooding.
So another way of looking at it is that a dictatorship political system is
self-healing and self-regenerating.
Gettiing back to technology, quite obviously basing energy systems on oil is
self-regenerating. Basing them on nuclear is not self-regenerating unless
only building breeder reactors (and in that case your going to have a hell
arms problem with plutonium diversion) Basing them on something like wind
tides is self-regenerating because no matter how much energy we take out of
the sun is constantly fueling more wind movement.
Today we have an incredible number of systems, technological systems that
which are not self-regenerating, and in fact quite a number of these are
run out within a few centuries.
Our first priority should be to adjust these systems to extend their
as you will, and right after that our next priority should be to replace
systems that are self-regenerating. This can be done with innovation, but
can be done by reducing consumption. Population reduction is the quickest
to reduce consumption, that is why China does not allow more than 2 births
But you see, man really hasn't learned to overcome obstacles put before him.
One of these obstacles is man has not learned to wean himself off things
oil as an energy source, which we know is finite.
If you could tomorrow put together an inexhaustable energy system, or an
inexhaustable food production system, or an inexhaustable whatever
system, then you could be perfectly fine arguing for unlimited population
But we don't have that now, and as such, an excellent first step would be to
do what is necessary to make world population growth flatten out. An
second step would be to adjust global systems so that all of the people we
have on the planet get a decent education, so that they can be working on
the self-regenerating systems that we need.
Just for the record steel does not come out of the ground. Steel is an
amalgam and is the mostly recycled man made product. At the current rate
of consumption the world has enough iron ore deposits to last a thousand
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <of the car. >> >
Every time we manufacture another car we lose a bit of the steel
Comparing US and Euro unemployment figures is totally meaningless. The Euro
numbers reflect the number of people actually unemployed, while the US
numbers only count those still actively seeking employment. Those who have
given up are not counted, so the actual US vs. Euro unemployment is much
closer than the official number indicate.
Delphi supplies General Maintenance (GM). GM was/is Delphi's parent.
Wouldn't bother me one bit if both went out of business. They should be shut
Behold Beware Believe
| Golden parachutes? A general strike will bring corporate America to its
| senses. Executives should be pink slipped on Friday for Monday's
| uncompensated layoff.
| If you think Mexican or Chinese auto parts will cost you less, you're
| mistaken. You'll pay the same price for them as if American workers made
| those parts. Labor costs have nothing to do with your price. Profits
| everything to do with your price. As labor costs go down, profits go
| up...the price remains the same!
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:52:32 -0600, "Larry Crites"
taxpayers who will probably end up supporting them until (if and when)
they find something else....
Back in the early 70s (when dinosaurs ruled the earth : 0 ) Boeing
lost the SST contract to build the plane which was to compete with the
Concorde. All those people were laid off. A large number went on the
public rolls, but many also went to work doing anything to bring home
the bacon. Among the aerospace engineers were many who felt that it
was beneath their dignity to have a PhD hanging on the wall, and work
at McDucks supporting their families. So, you had college students,
welfare mothers (it was the 70s), and PHs all standing in line at the
grocery with food stamps in hand. And who pays for it?
You are kidding right? Be careful what you wish for, as they say, you might
get your wish. Currently it is a buyers market for vehicles, keeping new
vehicle prices in check, because there is more capacity to build more
vehicles then there are buyers in the US. GM sells over 30% of all the
vehicles in the US, nearly a third more than Ford and three times as many as
the number three manufacture, Toyota. If GM went under the demand would far
exceed the available production effecting economies of scale and the price
of vehicles would skyrocket at least 25% or more. Those hurt the most
would be those that buy econoboxes, vehicles that are currently subsidized
by larger cars and trucks far more profitable vehicle sales. In addition
the corporate and personal income taxes lost, federal and state taxpayers
would have to absorb most of the cost of pensions, unemployment and
bankruptcies etc for those hundreds of thousands of employees that work for
GM, it suppliers and it dealers that would be out of a job..
Theres is sufficient excess capacity in the world auto market to replace
GM's output in short order. If GM actually shut down, it's plants,
designs and such would also be cherry picked by remaining companies and
it's best bits would stay in production.
I don't expect GM to shut down, but I do expect them to go through a
massive Chapter 11 reorganization sometime in the next 1-10 years.
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