Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half!

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Federal traffic controllers were fired for violating their CONTRACT. Like many union contracts they had a no strike clause. Unions represent employees and unions have only ONE right in that contract and that is the
right to force the employers to abide by the terms of that contract or pay a price when they do not, period. Unions have no right to violate that contract or they pay a price as well.. The union was advised by President Ragan that if they violated their contract they would be fired, they chose to go out on strike anyway and were fired.
mike hunt

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delphi as well as all us auto plants pay about $65 per hour in wages and benefits to hourly employees. the hourly and salary folks are not worth anywhere near that amount of money.

it
sadly
have
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I'm Right wrote:

And whose fault is that?
a) MBA's and accountants who dumbed down the production line.
Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.
Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half a century ago.
b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison themselves.
c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places? it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you will hear a far off song.
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You folks ought to read some history. Do you really think that companies like to give you a paid vacation, sick days, paid medical? Paid medical, notice that when unions clout began to erode out came the HMO? Prior it was a comprehensive program where you could go to any doctor you wanted to see. Now they control that. Where the heck do you think the 40hour week came from? Union men and woman fought and some died to get you the benefits you enjoy today. Do some unions suck yup. but some do a hell of a job. You might want to think where you'd be without unions, also where you will be if they are gone. We have started down that slippery slope.imho
Roy
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Roy wrote:

Read? Who do you think you are suggesting we read about the unions and the early immigants who formed the powerful unions to fight the sweatshops on the Lower East Side in New York city? The Triangle Fire anybody?
You're right, of course. It's just my recent personal experience with unions has been very bad. Well, one particular union obviously. But I tried. The really bad-ass union, a local Teamsters, not the sweetheart corrupt one I mentioned before, actually gave me the most time and consideration. I don't know what happened to them. Something with shotguns and holing up to fight the main Teamsters. Kind of nasty.
But you need unions. One leading law firm that does the union work actually uses the UAW to protect its clerk hourly employees from these really nasty high-powered legal types, its own lawyers, who are fighting for labor. That's really ugly but life goes on.
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We have started down that slippery slope.imho

You are absolutely NOT wrong, Roy. Pre unions, there was child labor, sweat shop conditions, no benefits, conspired salary controls.
Had not the unions been formed, does anyone REALLY think that American would have been a fit place to work? Not likely.
Yes, there have been excesses. And the attitude of some Americans is toward something for nothing.
But in the past, it was all for the wealthy industrialists, and nothing for anybody else.
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On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.nix wrote:

Absolutely right. That was in the 1800s. This is no longer the 1800s. Nowtimes, the reason for the unions' existence is to enrich the union leaders at the expense of the rank and file.

You *really* think that's changed? Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, Parmalat, Delphi, every major oil company...shall I go on?
DS
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The first 'union' was started in the anthracitic coal fields, in and around Schuylkill county, in northeastern Pennsylvania in the late 1800's. Irish coal minors fought against 12 hour work days, six days a week, in the most horrible and deadly working conditions imaginable, for $3 a week. Do a search for a group know as the 'Molly McGuire's.'
mike hunt

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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Roy wrote:

Blah blah sloganeering blahbitty blah blah.

There is no one single answer to that question. It gets even less simple when the question is asked properly: "Where would we be without unions *IN THEIR PRESENT FORM*.
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Hard time dealing with a little history and fact?
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On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Roy wrote:

Not at all. Present some history and some facts, not just empty slogans, and I'll deal with it just fine.
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Never read about the Pinkerton's and strikes? Take a walk to your local library and read away.
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Roy wrote:

Certainly I have. You're suggesting that because of events from the past -- mostly the *distant* past -- unions in their present form are an undebateable force for good. I disagree with you.
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You would have us revert to our past? Although in some ways we are headed that way imo.
I said somewhere in this thread that some unions suck, others don't. Also said that the members make up the union read what ya want into it. Were there no unions today do you truly believe that benefits, wages and safety,would be as they are?
Roy
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Roy wrote:

Plain and simple, I know it sounds cold but the wages are to high for the work being done because you can train anyone with no skill at all to do nmost of those jobs in short order. They will have a choice, a job with maybe 40 buck. an hour in wages and benfits which is not bad money for that work or hold out for current wages and have no job at all.
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If high wages are the problem and all unions suck, I'd expect you folks to be doing your part and give back to whoever you work for, 50% of your pay. Oh, silly me how could I think such a thing. That only happens to somebody else.
You folks might want to take the time to get a good grasp on reality, because when they pull it off with the unions, care to guess who is next? YOU!
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Roy wrote:

Riiiiiiight, unions are all that's preventing massive, wholesale elimination of all jobs.
It's amazing to me how the unionists will wave their little flags and chant their vacuous little slogans as long as it's the union bosses who call the shots. Let it be the government instead, and these same sloganeers start bitching and whining about socialism.
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I don't agree with pay cuts, for any workers, Delphi or not. I have never agreed with the idea of pay cuts.
But I do understand that some people are clearly overpaid.
This isn't the fault of the worker, however. Workers must be assumed to try to get as much money as they can, whatever the circumstances. Management must be assumed to pay out as little as possible, whatever the circumstances.
If in a given business like Delphi, the workers happen to be overpaid, this is not a worker problem. It's Management being stupid by giving away too much at the negotiating table and letting the salaries go to high.
If a businesses conditions change and they find their line of work to be less profitable than before, thus making it more difficult to continue to pay at the same rate of pay as before, then their management must find other more profitable lines of work. This is what diversification is all about. That is why management is running the company, not the workers. If management does not do that then they have failed and the usual result is bankruptcy and shutting down the company. This is a management failure, not a worker failure. Nobody is holding a gun to any of Delphi's managers and telling them they cannot quit their jobs anytime. Those managers are staying there because they are claiming they are competent to run the company. If they are not competent, than they are liars. If their company fails it is better for the economy because then it will be replaced by another company that does have competent managers.
All of this is Business 101 and I think it surprising that these concepts are so difficult to understand.
Ted
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Roy wrote:

If you can find someplace I suggested doing so, please post a message ID. I'll be over here waiting.
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