Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half!

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Someone wrote: "b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison themselves."
I would agree with some of your comments but not all. First is teachers union made it hard to get rid of teachers once tenure was put in place.
I do have to disagree with cop unions. Most were reinstated by civil service boards that are made up of the corrupt city officials friends.
On your comments a unions did not help is totally untrue. Having worked in both union and non union locations, I can tell you that I been treated better in union locations then non union locations. Safety conditions are better in union shops then non union shops I worked in. Union have lost more then they gained.
Have you every sat in on negotiations? The first thing on a unions wish list is not wages but better working conditions and benefits. It is not the union fault health care is so high. It is all of our fault for not taking better care of ourselves. It is the fault of lawsuits that don't need to be filed.
People formed unions to getter better working conditions then to get better wages. Delphi is asking workers to go from roughly 28.00 dollars and hour to 14 dollars and hour, give up their health insurance benefits and retirement benefits. Delphi wants to cut retiree benefits and only pay a pension.
They are not the only company wanting to do this. I work for a major chemical company. They did not ask us to take a pay cut but want us to pay more for our medical insurance. Presently they pay 80% and we pay 20%. They want to step it back to 70% company and 30% employee and drop medical on all future retirees. We rejected this idea because the company right now is making record profits and they are asking us to pay more. The CEO just got a 45 % pay raise. His profit sharing bonus is at 25% while ours is only 4% of our base salary plus 4% for all overtime pay.
Unions only ask that profits should benefit the low hourly workers as they do upper management.
If you that concerned about this countries future then buy from American companies that still have people working in this country and not from companies that ship a finish product here. Buy union made products.
Union Proud Union Made
Member of PACE local 4-750
Sarge
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Sarge wrote:

True.
True but I have seen some cop unions go out of the way for corrupt cops.

What comments? I agree with you about unions in the past. Presently, the unions are not as corrupt as management but it's a tough call but the unions are a little less corrupt. But you're right here. Unions let people get out of third world conditions where their lives are so much fodder for the bean counters.
When I last interacted with union organizing to a little degree, I was surprised. The board of directors was lined with the union leader's family. Nice cushy $70,000 a year job being a "trustee." Not bad. And the gritty address for the union was a phony front. They were located in a suburban setting with locks on all doors. I am not surprised that Walmart is winning.

The last union I belonged to was sold out in a sweetheart deal so nope, I never sat in. This was a local of the infamous Teamster's which was so corrupt it was put out of business. The head of the union was like a little mafia character, you're a bright boy, he told me, you ask a lot of questions. He was annoyed that I pointed out that he forced the union to take a cut!!! in wages for the pensioners when the federal government guarantees pensions!!! Needless to say, everything went down the tubes.

I try but it's difficult. Management is usually ruthless MBA's. And the unions - I have a lot of trouble with their street attitudes. One is corrupt. The other is stupid. And I recently tried again with a very famous national union to do some organizing for them.
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On 11 Oct 2005 09:51:11 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com"

Bert Rutan? The guy that designed & built the rocket powered space plane? He designs some of the wierdest looking airplanes you've ever seen, and they fly like a dream. Sure would like to see what he could do designing a complete car.

Everyone in the plant I worked in was sent to Deming classes. Upper management then decided that's not the way we want to do business & kept going as usual.

There's no incentive to do a good job. The goof-offs get the same money as the hard workers. Ride the good horse and ignore the bad ones. When you ride him into the ground, find another good horse.

In DC they wear suits. :-)

It's not all that far away now.
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David Starr wrote:

I goofed. MacReady was the engineer who made the first man-powered flight. Rutan is another engineer with the prize for the first private rocket dual flight.

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David Starr wrote:

Yup, it's not a good feeling knowing that.
Who's the cat in your picture? A baby leopard? For a moment he looked like one of those half-wild Asian cats that make pets but this one looks truly annoyed and feral. It's the first pix. The tigers I can figure out :) I haven't done any 4x5 since I dropped a whole bunch in a tank and ruined everything.

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One hears stories like that all the time but management can fire, or demote any union workers not performing their job up to the skill level required by the contract to hold that job. If someone like that is on the job it is a management problem. A union can not protect a worker who does not do his job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does not report off, steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop you should know that.
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote: "One hears stories like that all the time but management can fire, or demote any union workers not performing their job up to the skill level required by the contract to hold that job. If someone like that is on the job it is a management problem. A union can not protect a worker who does not do his job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does not report off, steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop you should know that."
Amen
If management does do a piss poor job of following their own rules and documenting an employees actions prior to firing him, then they left themselves open to having to rehire the person including give him back pay. This happens in both union shops and non-union shops.
Sarge PACE Local 4-750
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Oh it happens, I can tell you some stories that you would not believe about screwups being brought back to work by union. Maybe not in your shop but it does happen a lot.
Sarge wrote:

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Of course things like that can happen but the point is the original poster made the broad statement that being a union member prevents management from firing bad employees and that simply is not factual.
mike hunt

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management
that
worker
does
pay.
That is true, however it is also the case that if you do the paperwork documentation required to get someone fired, whether union or not, and CYA, you will spend all your time on doing paperwork. Thus, the goof-off ends up destroying 2 persons productivity, his own, and his managers.
The real problem, though, isn't in the firing end, it is in the hiring end. Most managers are never trained in how to interview people and a majority of companies never check references or do background checks on people. It is also quite easy to hire a person for a "temporary" period for about 6 months, often from a temp agency, then if they work out then bring them in permanently. But once again, many businesses are too cheapskate to do this, as they don't want to pay the hiring bonus to the temp agency.
Ted
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Mike Hunter wrote:

I guess I should know that but I worked in a wild assortment of union shops which are probably not the types you fellows are familiar with. The union shop does give an awful lot of protection to even dumb, bad, dishonest workers. Probably the most dangerous union shop I ever worked at was in the merchant marines in war zones. But that's really a special case. We had guys coming out of prison. Guy dreaming of robbing safes. Even one auto worker from Detroit! He was about as useless as I was! Nice fellow just dumb. Probably rich and smiling now though!

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wrote:

I worked in a union shop for 40 years. I've seen the union reps toss out good grievances to get someone back to work that was fired for coming to work drunk 18 times in 17 years. I've seen the reps fight for people that repeatedly do not show up on time, have excessive absences, and generally do not do what they were hired to do. Management agrees to bring them back in return for dropping legitimate grievances and other bargaining issues.
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Most unions have elections, don't like what a rep is doing, vote him/her out. Been my experience that a union's membership get's the representation they deserve. Remember that the membership is the "union". Then again some unions are filled with members that whine and bitch and do not participate. Then they wonder why things go to hell.
40 years is along time. Enjoy retirement.
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The union is requires by law to fight for the workers in the plant what ever the cause, even for those that do not belong to the union but are covered by the union contact. However they can NOT win the fight to keep a worker that does not do his job etc.. The only one that can win is management, who may chose to keep the employee to win a bigger fight that they can not otherwise win.
mike hunt

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On 11 Oct 2005 15:06:21 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com"

The biggest problem with the UAW, in my opinion, is internal politics. There's no direct election of officers at the International level, they're "elected" by convention delegates, and there's usually only one candidate for each office. Dissent from the "Company line" is frowned on. At the local level, political strife carries over into bargaining decisions and grievance resolution. Up until recently, the officers at the local I'm a member of seemed more interested in power & prestige than anything else. At the last local election, most of the bunch in power lost to independents. Some of the losers promptly retired, others got appointed to jobs at the Regional office.
When the Union started, it was a necessary thing, and they did a good job. Over the last 20 years or so, they seem to have lost their way. They seem to have the attitude a lot of ultra-liberals do: they know what's best for you better than you do, and you should just shut up, do what they tell you to do, smile and be happy.

It's an Ocelot, and he was really annoyed with us being there.
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