Ford chief seeks help from Toyota

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Mike,
I got your point and am glad you made it. When the argument was made I thought they were saying Toyota outsold for the year. Very confusing how
this statement was made at the end of the year to begin with.
Nick

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My Name Is Nobody wrote:

Just because Toyota's market share is rising does not mean that people are going to change their buying preference.
My next vehicle will be either a Ford or a Chevy. It will most likely be a Ford F-250 4x4 truck.
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Probbly just wanted to see if he could get a good deal on an '07 Solara <G>
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Celica is no longer sold here...
Michael Johnson wrote:

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Japan isn't a problem IMO. Simply make a better product, that's all that's needed.
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Nicholas Anthony wrote:

interest
One post, as I have hashed this out too many times in the past. Ford and GM are as good or better than anything Nissan, Toyota, Honda, or any of their subsidiaries produce. They are a 100 fold better than the junk Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, or Mitsubishi put out.
All one has to do is research the number and types of recalls the asians have been having for almost 2 decades vrs what Ford and GM have been issuing. Of course researching that is hard these days, since AllData and Mitchell both pulled the lists for Asian cars this year. I wonder why they did that.
Whitelightning
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Whitelightning wrote:

The only place the domestic automakers are getting their a$$ kicked is in the marketing of their products. They have good vehicles but can't seem to sell them to the public.
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The seem to well in the US.. GM and Ford still outsell any import brand in the US.
mike
Nicholas Anthony wrote:

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Graph the domestic's market share for the last 20 years and you will see a disturbing trend. If they don't change things is just a matter of time before they will go the way of the dodo bird.
Mike Hunter wrote:

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Then why did Toyota out sell Ford? How come they have their sights on beating GM here very soon too?
Nick
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Because they sell terrific cars (just like GM and Ford). But, unlike GM and Ford, they sell them at a profit. Plus, they are able to sell many fuel-efficient cars, because they have so much more experience building and selling them than Ford and GM. And at a profit, too.
Jeff
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Nicholas Anthony wrote:

They may sell well, but not at a profit. Ford and GM are supposed to be for-profit companies. At the moment, they aren't.
Jeff
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You obviously do not understand the automobile business. Economies of scale, they ARE indeed making a big profit on their cars and trucks. The corporation is not making a profit however because of lower higher profit truck sales, plant restructuring and reductions as well as force reduction costs.
GM and Ford are spending billions if OR&DO, as well, for the many new models coming to market over the next three years. If one closely reads many of the various current owners surveys, rather than what is in the media, GM and Ford are arguably building BETTER cars and certainly better trucks than any of the imports. Even import buyers who the believe import cars are better, say the trucks from GM and Ford are better than what they find at the import stores.. How is that for a perception, when many of the engines and trannys in the GM and Ford cars are the same as in their trucks, albeit configured for more torque. Torque by the way is something the Japs give up in spades to get more horse power out of their underpowered engines
mike
wrote in message>>> The only place the domestic automakers are getting their a$$ kicked is

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wrote in message

That's why Ford is turning to the Japanese for help. And they have to order lots of red ink pens from Staples.
Jeff
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I had a talk with the owner of a Toyota dealership today about Ford's problems. He said Ford has spent way too much money on acquiring brands (Volvo, Jaguar, Aston-Martin, Land Rover etc.) and not nearly enough on their own product development and this has left them in a financial bind. He then went on to rattle off all the new vehicles Toyota will bring to market this year and it is a long list. He said Toyota doesn't worry about buying other companies but they are concerned with upgrading and updating the model line on a regular basis. He said they are getting ready to launch a full sized truck that is going to take a huge bite out of GM and Ford's sales. If Ford starts to lose substantial F150 sales to Toyota then they are going to be in some serious $hit. He also said the Firestone tire debacle on the Explorers hit Ford very hard financially and has reduced the number of Explorers they sell by a good bit.
His take was that Ford needs more vehicles like the Edge to bring them back to black and cars like the 500 are just too bland and underpowered to be successful. Keep in mind that this Toyota dealership owner has a Mustang GT setting in his garage so he isn't as one sided for Toyota as you might think. ;)
Mike Hunter wrote:

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Hey Hunter, don't you have anything else to say..? You sound like a broken record. And you know how bad a broken record sounds.
Nicholas Anthony wrote:

we
asians
Mitchell
in
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Actually Ford and GM fail on a number of measures that make for a 'better' product. GM makes a lot of boring, utilitarian, FWD cars and has been doing so for many many years. Ford has the mustang, that's it. The 500... what's that? A warmed over volvo? There is more that goes into 'better' than simple reliability. GM has cheapened parts to where it feels cheap.... it might be reliable but look and feel and things like that matter when you are trying to sell a product.

I am well aware how recalls and such are handled in the media. It doesn't help ford and gm that's for sure. But when ford can put a mustang out that's good and it sells, it's obvious that this isn't crippling them, it has to be something else.
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Much of what he complains about doesn't go away with higher trim levels. Look at the mustang just from '94 to '99. How much was decontented away? Leather rear seat, underhood light, etc etc. I am still waiting for some '94s to hit the local self serve yards so I can start pulling off things that were decontented by '97.
And the utilitarian feel of cars like taurus? That doesn't go away at all.
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Once ford cuts away the fat brought about by decades of union demands and managment excess, they will be back on track.Never be 1st but at least a viable competitor. I'm sure its gonna hurt a lot of people before it gets better. The auto industry is NOW no different than any other job that pays you on performance. Make good stuff at a good price and they will come. I know easier said than done!
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wrote:

Unfortunately, the only way to get out from under "all that baggage" that they have been dragging around will be to declare bankruptcy - which will have devastating and long term effects on the US economy.
You could head this off by having ALL the US based automakers (at once), their investors and bondholders, their subcontractors and suppliers, and the Unions representing all their labor forces renegotiate their contracts and agreements now, while the companies are still viable.
One of the stipulations would have to be that all the pension and benefit liabilities have to be caught up on and the trust funds made whole NOW, even if that lowers the wage rate some more.
Unfortunately, you aren't going to get them all to agree to this - the unions still have the attitude "We won these rights through collective bargaining, and we are going to keep them!"
Last I checked, keeping 100% of nothing still isn't a good deal. Berating a dead horse helps nobody - first you have to stop the beatings and nurse it back to health, then we talk again.
The bankruptcy wipes out all the investor equity, except for the few privileged people that can use dodges like preferred stock or the few secured things the BK court can't touch. Ford stock was once considered one of the solid "Widows and Orphans" investments that would never go away - not anymore... Any suppliers owed large sums by Ford will be hurt, some could be put under.
All the current employees and retirees will be hurt, badly. They can annul all the contracts, and use the leverage of "Sign the contract we put in front of you, or we don't open back up at all." This guarantees a workforce that really doesn't care whether the company survives or not...
The health insurance and other benefits will go away or be severely restricted, and the pension plans will go under and the (deliberately long under-funded) pension liabilities will be dumped on the US Pension Benefit Guaranty Fund - paid out of the General Fund which will hurt the US Economy.
And when the PBGF takes over the plans, the retiree benefit payout's drop a LOT compared to what was originally negotiated.

And there is a large lag time to consider - it can be several years between when they start actually delivering quality products at a good price that are also easy and inexpensive to repair and maintain over the long haul, and when you can convince the public that it has really happened, and that they won't backslide.
When you can change simple things simply - like swap the heater core in any Ford vehicle inside of two hours, or get to all the sparkplugs without disconnecting the motor mounts and lifting the engine partially out of the car or cutting a hole in the firewall (among other bonehead stunts they've pulled over the decades) - then I'll believe that they've fixed the engineering.
--<< Bruce >>--
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