Ford chief seeks help from Toyota

Why do you keep on with this? It simply isn't so...

"The first digit identifies the nation of origin. If the car was assembledfrom parts produced in different countries, this digit reflects the nationwhere the car was assembled. Some larger nations are split into regions. Forexample, cars built in Japan are assigned a J in the first digit. But carsmade in the U.S. can have a 1, 4 or 5, depending on the region of itsassembly. "

You might also look at

and show us where it mentions the first digit in the VIN is dependent on domestic parts content. (Hint: it doesn't!!)

How Stuff Works may say that, but, that does not explain why vehicles that are built on the same assembly line have different first digits in thier VIN.

Thanks. I haven't seen these documents. I will take a look at them later when I have high-speed internet access instead of dial-up.

Jeff

That may be want to believe and you are correct when you say vehicles assembled in Mexico get a '3' and Japan a "I." Even the Camrys that have a "J" display a NA Content label of something like 70% and the complete vehicle is made of parts from all over the far east. Like all other counties they have only one number assigned, just as the vehicles made in Canada by US and Japanese manufactures, of US or other imported parts get a '2.' If what you believe to be true, was actually true, there would be only one number for the US as well, a '1.'

Actually the Camry you described would get a '5,' less than 40% US content. The only Toyota vehicles assembled in the US that get a '1' are those made in the GM/California plant where the UAW contract requires 70 & US content

mike

That may be your opinion but a little logic will prove what you believe is wrong. There are similar variation in GM and Chrysler vehicles as well. Tundra's a made in Indiana have 5, Titans made just over the state line have a 1. Ford Trucks made in Kentucky have a 1. Lincoln pickups made on the same assemble line have a 4.

mike

Which also destroys your conjecture that the VINs have anything to do with content as well.

If I am incorrect, please provide the evidence that VINs have anything to do with content.

Your opinion does not count.

Jeff

I have to admit that you have an active imagination.

Federal law requires that the first digit or letter of the indicate the coutnry of manufacture. That is all the first digit or letter means.

You state that the VIN has something to do with the content. Please provide some documentation.

Every website I have seen that has anything to do with this only says that the first digit refers the country of origin. This includes the websites run by the US government and the actual law. None of them refer to US content.

Tons of vehicles get VINs, like fire trucks, dump trucks, cars from lots of manufacturers, bus, graders, cement trucks, street cleaning vehicles, ambulances, other construction equipment, tractor trailers, etc. For a long time, even off-road vehicles like snowmobiles and 4-wheelers got them (they now have their own version). The reason why there are 3 digits is that there are so many manufacturers (technically the first 3 characters refer to the WMI, world manufacturer identifier, which is a 3-character code that refers to a particular manufacturer).

I have no idea where your fairy-tale idea of US content having something to do with the first character of the VIN came from, but it doesn't wash with the fact that nearly identical vehicles from the same assembly line have VINs that according to your scheme indicate vastly different amounts of US content, in many cases, differing considerable from published US content amounts.

Please provide web pages that support your view. Or stop giving out the wrong information.

And stop top posting.

Jeff

Ask the SAE, if you really want to know, since they are contracted with the US DOT to assign the WMI to every new vehicle produced in the US.

A little research will prove what you believe is stupid.

There are similar variation in GM and Chrysler vehicles as well.

So the Titans are made with over 70% US content????

Ford Trucks made in Kentucky have a 1. Lincoln pickups made on the

You've posted this before but provide no evidence to back this up. Even if so, the Ford Trucks and Lincolns made on the same assembly line, preseumably with the same basic parts mix, actually proves you wrong...

The WMI assigned by the SAE to the Lincoln pickups were assigned much later than the Ford trucks since Lincoln only recently started making pickups.

Give it up.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 13:25:57 -0500, Mike Hunter rearranged some electrons to form:

The 1st digit of the VIN does not designate anything about the parts content.

You were wrong before, Mike, and you're still wrong.

How about working smarter?

What we are seeing is that the rest of the world is learning to do what we have been doing, and we are not learning fast enough to do something nobody else does yet.

When the folks in those turd-world countries can do anything for less money than we are willing to do it for, of course that's where the production goes. Government can not stop that process, anymore than water will flow uphill, or than you can get more energy out of a gallon of corn than out of a gallon of gasoline.

The worst politicians will try to tell you different, because that's what you want to hear, but it just ain't so.

Jack

Actually, we are. We make the world's best selling car (the Camry); Ford and GM are working on a new transmission with a hybrid motor built in (so that all one would need to do to make a car a hybrid is add batteries and include this transmission); we're world leaders in fuel cell research; we're doing much research to make us a hydrogen economy; and we make solar powered cars that can go accross a desert.

We're also world leaders in providing health care and pension benefits to our workers.

It is third-world, not turd world. It is not like they chose to be poor. What would you do if you were in a third world country? Say, gee, I had better not work for the new Ford plant, I might be taking a job from an American.

However, the Japanese auto makers are building plants in the US, too.

Actually, we now get more energy out of corn than it takes to make the ethanol.

Actually, it is so.

You have to keep up with the news.

Jeff

Jack There is some manufacturing that has to be protected. The California port lock out by the port owners should have been a wake up call, but it wasn't. The reason the feds intervened was military parts were running low. The first ships unloaded where those with Military parts, and those with perishable goods. If I can shut your military parts supply off, as has been demonstrated in every single war the last 100 years, I can stop you cold. Asia can shut our military down any time they want. They can do the same thing to a god part of our transportation infrastructure as well. Nothing works to well these days with out those fancy circuit boards.

Whitelightning

You are free to believe whatever you chose, but if you used a little logic it should become apparent that there must be a reason the US has three numbers, rather than one as do all other countries. Do a search as I did when I became curios as to why there is more than one number for vehicles assemble in the US. You will discover as I have that it the difference is US content, which is more than the totality of the parts. '1' indicates more than 70%, '4' less than 70% but more than 40% and '5' less than 40%. ;)

mike

The fact that the US is so big and has so many auto, bus, truck, off-road vehicle, construction vehicle, etc., manufacturers is the reason.

You're correct. I am free to believe whatever I want. And I went and did my research so that I would have an informed opinion. And my informed opinion is now based on facts, not on the conjecture of someone else who doesn't back up his statements.

I did do the search. What I found is that not one site mentions differences in content as a reason. I did find that nearly idencial vehicles produced on the same production line with nearly identical percent N.A. content have different VINs, because they are sold as different brands (Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda).

If what you suggest is correct, then Ford would have a three groups of VINs, differing only in the first digit. However, as you can see on the second page, this is incorrect.

Lincoln SUVs are all assigned a VIN beginning with '5'. Why? That is what the organization that assigns VINs decided. It has nothing to do with content.

I also read the legal code that says the US Dept. of Transportation has to have VINs. It mentioned WMIs, but nothing about content. If your conjecture were correct, I would think it would be in the legal code.

I went ahead and did my homework. My homework showed no support of your conjecture. And plenty of evidence against it.

Please post the URL that shows I am incorrect.

In other words, please put up or shut up. Did you notice not one person has said that your are correct?

You'll also notice that I admit when I am wrong. The figures I got for Dec.

2006 auto sales where incorrect. According to Ward's Automotive, Toyota outsold Ford. But the figures were wrong. I admitted that. Mistakes happen.

So let's see whether you should admit you were incorrect or I was. There is no shame in making a mistake. Show us the evidence you so often talk about, but don't show us.

Jeff

Re: Ford chief seeks help from Toyota Group: alt.autos.ford Date: Sat, Jan 6, 2007, 9:02pm (EST+5) From: snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Jeff) "Mike Hunter" wrote in message news:6gidnQMBp snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net... You are free to believe whatever you chose, but if you used a little logic it should become apparent that there must be a reason the US has three numbers, rather than one as do all other countries. The fact that the US is so big and has so many auto, bus, truck, off-road vehicle, construction vehicle, etc., manufacturers is the reason. You're correct. I am free to believe whatever I want. And I went and did my research so that I would have an informed opinion. And my informed opinion is now based on facts, not on the conjecture of someone else who doesn't back up his statements. =A0=A0Do a search as I did when I became curios as to why there is more than one number for vehicles assemble in the US. =A0 You will discover as I have that it the difference is US content, which is more than the totality of the parts. =A0 '1' indicates more than 70%, '4' less than

70% but more than 40% and '5' less than 40%. I did do the search. What I found is that not one site mentions differences in content as a reason. I did find that nearly idencial vehicles produced on the same production line with nearly identical percent N.A. content have different VINs, because they are sold as different brands (Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda). If what you suggest is correct, then Ford would have a three groups of VINs, differing only in the first digit. However, as you can see on the second page, this is incorrect. Lincoln SUVs are all assigned a VIN beginning with '5'. Why? That iswhat the organization that assigns VINs decided. It has nothing to dowith content. I also read the legal code that says the US Dept. of Transportation has to have VINs. It mentioned WMIs, but nothing about content. If your conjecture were correct, I would think it would be in the legal code. I went ahead and did my homework. My homework showed no support of your conjecture. And plenty of evidence against it. Please post the URL that shows I am incorrect. In other words, please put up or shut up. Did you notice not one person has said that your are correct? You'll also notice that I admit when I am wrong. The figures I got for Dec. 2006 auto sales where incorrect. According to Ward's Automotive, Toyota outsold Ford. But the figures were wrong. I admitted that. Mistakes happen. So let's see whether you should admit you were incorrect or I was. There is no shame in making a mistake. Show us the evidence you so often talk about, but don't show us. Jeff ;)

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:35:28 -0500, Mike Hunter rearranged some electrons to form:

The 1st digit of the VIN does not designate anything about the parts content.

You were wrong before, Mike, and you're still wrong.

Post a link and I will believe you. Otherwise you are wrong.

There is a reason why the US has three numbers. We have more assembly plants than anyone else.

[...]

We are on the same side then, if you agree it's less about protecting jobs than protecting capacity. The jobs will come along with it and that's not a bad thing. But how do you do it at an affordable price with a minimum of corruption and waste? By facilitating R&D and investment, and not by creating a government-financed and -protected enclave for inefficiency, e.g., Ethanol.

I think we can stop feeding Asia as quickly as you say they can stop our transportation.

Jack

You keep saying this but you have yet to provide an authoritative cite to substantiate your claim, while your detractors have provided multiple cites as refutations.

Jack