Ford, GM have discussed merger, alliance

Page 3 of 6  
Tenured worker, that's a vested worker with 8-12 years on the job, working the 3-11 shift makes $50,000 a year. The 7-3 shift slightly less, the 11-7
shift slightly more. Over-time can raise that amount significantly, but then over-time can raise anyone's wages significantly. My wife's father's pension was $20,000 a year, plus medical when he passed away in 89. And at that time the amount dropped almost in half for my mother in law. From the time I met my wife in 77 till he passed away they owned 3 cars. When I met her they had a 74 Impala. When he passed away they had an 87 S-10 Blazer. They lived in a modest 3 bedroom house in Fenton, and then sold that and bought a small 2 bedroom 6 year old mobile home in central Florida. Most of her family is similar, and my family on my fathers side that worked for GM the same. That's why I always get such a laugh when I read about these wages. Yeah they got pension, and they got medical, and yes medical amounts to a lot these days, but instead of screaming about them having it, why aren't we screaming about the outrageous cost of health care? I kick myself in the ass daily for many things, like why didn't I stay in the service, I would have retired with 20 years some time ago, or why didn't I seek out a job with GM when I got out of the service, I would have had more than enough people pulling for me if I had approached any of my in laws. The real kick is the top 10% in the company make more then the rest of the workforce combined.
Toyota recently opened a new plant in Tenn. They got Tenn. to almost give them the land, they got major major tax breaks, they got Tenn. to build a mini plant next door for a training facility, Tenn. pays prospective employee's wages while they are in training, and Tenn. pays the "instructors" wages. What a sweat heart deal. And they hammered the same basic deal for the new plant going in Texas, and Canada is about to give the same and more.. If GM or Ford tried that everyone and their second cousin would be lined up to sue them. Starting pay at the Tenn. plant is $16 an hour, $3 less than GM or Ford, but Toyota and Honda are like Wal-mart they pick depressed areas in right to work/work at will states to build their plants and then demand major tax concessions to boot. Health care costs for the employee are high, and there is no pension plan at all. 401K and stock plans your on your own. But to the workers there it beats wal-mart or McDonalds, never mind that in the long run they are cutting their own throats.
I really do believe most people are quite naive about what we are up against. They can not fathom a person with an MBA from a major university being happy to work for $350 a month, live with his wife educated the same and making the same, two kids and usually at least one parent in a 560 square foot apartment that only has running water for 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening. Read Thomas L Friedman's book "The World is Flat" its a real eye opener. It got my dad to cut up his Sams Club card Whets going to happen when China starts importing a car selling for under $5,000? Its going to be a piece of junk, and its going to sell like hot cakes.
Whitelightning
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The goal of those who control practically everyone in elected office is to use china as the model for the world's government, corporate, and military structure. In China there is no such thing as conflict of interest. Military general, party offical, government office holder, and corporate CEO can be the same person at the same time.
However, I don't think we are going to get to live as well as the chinese, I think they'll have us living like peasants in Mexico. Of course even people in china are being pushed in that direction as their homes and land, often in the same family for hundreds of years is taken by the government for corporate development.
Just look at what is going on as open borders are flooding the US labor pool and the senate just trying to make it all legal rather than stop it. (And nobody play any sort of race card, there are more mexicans in the USA as it is than all the other immigrants of the 19th and 20th centuries, it's about the numbers) The open trade policies designed to encourage and then force the remaining manufacturing to leave the USA.
And then people will come back with, well it's just like it was with japan... no, it's not. Japan industrialized with most of the west. They fell behind from being bombed flat. They caught up. They have environmental and labor protections. US corporations did not relocate their manufacturing to Japan. Japanese companies compete more or less on an even footing all things said and done. (the big three do get big concessions from government too, just not from the UAW)
Unless we throw out the two party system on it's ass, we are going to be in for a world of hurt. The republic (USA) is teetering at a tipping point, we can pull back from the edge or fall over it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:

Why? so he can pay more for less of the same thing also made in China, somewhere else? How silly!
Better to realize that Walmart is responsible for the lower Middle Class still having some standard of living!

And the Darling of the Lefties, GEORGE SOROS..is going to be making a killing on it, it's already started, he's a core investor.

Another way to look at it is the Chinese abandoned the Russian model in favor of the Japanese model... and are going the way of Market Economy, albeit National socialst in nature

Bullhockey.. the family might have lived there for centuries, but only at the whim of Peking

No they dont, that's the problem... it's retirement pesions and medical care that's the burden. Congress and the Unions should have realized this and switched ALL Pension and med to a government-overseen corporation with revenue from an auto sales excise tax. So even if you bought a foreign import it was supporting the US autoworker

Well, maybe... Better if the existing parties were less concerned about their graft and staying in, or regaining power, and did what's right.
--
Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

They haven't followed any sort of Japanese model on any level.

You just said I was full of shit and then agreed with me.


King Richard the second here in chicago sure made ford a sweet deal as I recall.

As corporations want those burdens transfered to the taxpayers. Take it with a grain of salt.

Who do I get to tax for my pension and health care?

They will never be interested in what is right.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Backyard Mechanic wrote:

A more likely name is Malcolm Bricklin, who brought to America the Bricklin sports car (the police-officer-trapping-Bricklin-sports-car - he couldn't open the electrically operated gull wing door) and the Yugo

It's the Japanese model that is (or was) more like the Soviet model. China's system is closer to 19th century capitalism, only with even less of a long term view. Their primary aim is to cut costs, meaning they don't want to spend anything for longterm planning, and their electronics manufacturers do virtually nothing but copy chip manufacturers' reference designs, including the bugs, and package them in plastic cases. It's almost as if the Chinese simply want to make as much money as possible in the near term. In contrast the Japanese saw knockoffs as stepping stones to better products in the future.
By "National socialist," do you mean German-style fascism, which was socialist only in name, except perhaps for health care, which China's government no longer wants to provide for free (so in case of emergency, bring cash to the hospital).
It's only a dream for China and India to again own 75% of the world's wealth, as they did until the 16th century, but in reality the developed world will remain much wealthier than China because the things that made it wealthy in the first place - political freedom, free markets, universal education, and a generally ethical society - are those things that tend to keep nations wealthy.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 02:13:20 GMT, "Whitelightning"

Throw in benifits too like lnsurance, retirement, days off, pension. vehical purchase options to name a few that they do not pay for and work rules to and the net cost is well over 70K a year. You want to stimulate sales, slash wages 25% and you could slash car price 15% and still make a profit. Year ago I knew a guy that worked at a morane bearing plant. He told me up until mid 70's that when labor cost were lower (though they made a good wage still) that the would reject bearing that looked the slightest bit bad. Afer the agreesive wage a benifit tactics that started in mid 70's in the following years, they where told to pass bearing that were clearly bad to pay for wage increases and it got worse every year. THis was just one area and there were others. I has finailly reached critical mass and quaility and sales have suffered and Toyota and others have stepped it paying a more reasonable wage and being able to spend more time and money on quaility. Unless the UAW realizes that they must change, they will be out of a job one day. They will blame the imports but the blame is with their greed in a market that will no longer support it. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The government doesn't protect management from free gratis overtime. Just protects "labor," not anyone.

Well, they're not crazy. They could build plants somewhere that they'd need to deal with a union plus spend millions in bribes. They just don't want to. They'd rather receive millions in bribes.

No, it's the other way 'round. Most people know way better than auto workers. Every other manufacturer has to compete with China, Taiwan, Romania, etc etc., but not Ford and GM. People inside the auto business don't know what competition is yet. With the sky-high cost of labor in Japan and Europe, GM and Ford are not up against anything but better run businesses. They have never had to compete with cheap labor. Never. They got in the shape they're in just out of sheer inbred stupidity, plus their small-town-crook dealers driving their customers away.
However, good things don't last forever. The Koreans can build a good car now. After China figures it out, that's a whole 'nuther ballgame. It's a ballgame that everybody else has already played. Autoworkers need to look around at U.S. manufacturing and see what's coming. Entire industries can just vanish from the US, and already have. Fertilizer, furniture, shoes, clothing, electronics, textiles, methanol, all pretty much gone. Others, like steel, are merely shrunk, and some others, like basic plastics, are just doomed to never making any money again forever. GM and Ford snoozed right through the deaths of all these industries.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No just health care costs alone...

That will not sell and they will be out of bussiness

Yes and they got wage reducitons too. The gravy train ride is over but labor does not see it that way. The writing has been on the wall for some time now.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I can remember when you could buy either a ford or GM for around 3500 bucks, both were good trucks, built well and for the right price...then all of a sudden the workers wanted more money, and the price of the trucks doubled and what suffered the product. Now your paying 16 to 25 grand for a piece of junk that has been thrown together and probably won't last 100K miles.
the only way either company can save their collective asses are by laying off as many UNION workers as they can, as fast as they can.
just my 2
wrote:

many
employ
much
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

bucks,
piece
I remember those days, back in the late 60's. They squeaked and rattled ac was a rarity, 6 banger three on the tree, vinyl seats, rubber mats, maybe an am radio in the dash, but it was an option, no electric windows, no power door locks, no fancy rims, no soft ride, painted bumpers painted grill, no chrome. No clock on the dash, no tach, no gages, just idiot lights. No head liner, no fancy upholstered inner door panels, painted metal, very small arm rest. No tinted glass. tune up twice a year, if it got close to 60,000 miles on the odometer we were looking to ditch it because it was getting close to needing a valve job, and maybe a re-ring.
Your another of those that think the other guy should make major wage concessions, so go their wages, so go your wages. Unless the American public(and that included Canada) starts getting their collective head out of their ass, this country is going the same way England and France have gone, zero zip manufacturing, and an average unemployment time of 2 years living on the dole hoping for a job making fish and chips for the tourists.
Whitelightning
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Guys, every empire in the history of the world has collapsed. Civilization is the story of rise and fall. Seriously, why would the US be any different? You can't stop it. Seems like the day is coming. The US will most likely end up like Britain over the past 100 years: it used to run the world. It WAS the world. Today, while it still has a massive military, it also has high unemployment, foreign ownership of everything, depressed wages, rising crime rates, and on and on it goes. The US is probably next in line.
Brad

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:01:31 GMT, "BradandBrooks"

Interesting view and point. If the US falls it will because of the people running it (like those now) that are only interested in short term gain and not looking at the long term picture just like some industries today. THe said part is that every consumer will pay for this folly. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
whitelightning,
i like your stories - especially the one about hte pinto. sadly, a high-milage reliable pinto was not the norm. conversely, most people who had bought toyotas in the mid-80s liked them and kept them for long stretches and loved their reliability, much as you did you pinto.
whatever detroit does, it will take them a generation to win back consumers. to speed up this process, detroit will have to pray that some of the popular japanese models (prius, echo, fit) become as poor and unreliable as some legendary detroit lemons like Kcars, volares, pintos, and citations. (please dont share a story in response about some 1m mile citation that was 'bulletproof' - i just ate my egg mcmuffin and i dont want to barf it up!)
another thing, it bothers me that good hard working americans are being perceived as the cause of detroit's failures. these US conglomerates should be able to pay a 50k wage and care of the health of their people. they should be able to do it. it should not be a focus of blame of a 15% factor in the sticker price of their cars. maybe the US government should be picking up the healthcare costs of these retirees (and all other hard -working americans). i am sure intheir hayday GM paid unimaginable taxes. the cause of their failure is poor product design, and a weak corporate culture.
harry in montreal.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Montreal wrote:

Comparing a pinto to mid 80s japanese car is pretty unfair, since the pinto entered the marketplace in 1971 and left practically unchanged in 1980. Spoting the japanese automakers ~15 years of advancement is unfair.

It's assembly line work... I'm sorry, but it's not the sort of job that generally needs to be highly paid nor has a bottom line relationship where it pays for its self.

Corporate culture drives the rest, part of corporate culture is the union culture.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Brent P wrote:

brent, you are joking right? verygood, you are correct, they built the Pinto in 1980... long after it should have been discontinued. So, lets compare a 1980 Tercel with a 1980 Pinto. do you think this is a fairer comparison? which do you think is superior?

people on assembly lines buy cars. a huge segment of the US population earns wages in this bracket. they have children that become lawyers and doctors too. besides, i did not say that 50,000 a year is highly paid.

very well, a big part of corporate culture are designers, engineers, and marketers that devise these average products. the accountants, and line workers later suffer at the back-end from this initial weakness.
Harry
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Montreal wrote:

I would say 70s car to 70s car. Now you might have named the one japanese car of the era that I liked it's styling and was still RWD. I forget which toyota it is... or even if it was a toyota... anyway... in most instances I would end up choosing the fireball ford in the pinto class.

For putting tab A into slot B it is. And ultimately that's why manufacturing ends up going to places like china, because that's all people on the line often want to deal with.

Real engineers (does not include those who couldn't design their way out of a wet paper bag being promoted into management) have little effect on corporate culture in large US corporations. They are a worker bee class that returns far more than their salaries. On just one product at one employer I returned more to the bottom line than probably an entire career's worth of pay. The larger the company, the less impact the real engineer has because he doesn't play the politics.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I have no clue what the joke is supposed to be here. A lot of times I think people fail to grasp the obvious. Unthinking sarcasm has a way of backfiring.
The Pinto was a much hardier design than a 1980 Tercel, but different. The 1980 Tercel probably got better gas mileage, but it wasn't much of a car. It wasn't meant to be. A 1971 Toyota is a tough little car, but so's a Pinto. Here's how we know:
The Pinto had many derivative products, because it was well-designed. People just don't remember stuff like that. They can only remember what the media told them about the gas tank. For instance, the engine that they used, wherever it came from, remained in production for 40 years because it was a quality item. There were racing series based on it and it appeared in all sorts of new and kit-built autos and industrial applications in markets all over the world. Does everybody remember that? Wasn't on the news, was it? It was the standard Ford Ranger engine for a couple of decades, during which that product led in its market. Remember? Also, the suspension of the Pinto caught on for customized construction and that is still being produced today and used in lots of high-dollar one-off stuff. It doesn't currently appear that it'll ever go out of style. It amazes me. Obviously the junkyards are long empty of Pintos, and they have to make all that stuff brand new.
The body of a Pinto isn't going to win any awards, but Pintos were certainly far less rust-prone than 1970's Japanese cars. There's no contest there. I hope that's obvious to everybody. If you disagree with that, you just don't remember the 70's. My daily driver is a 1970's Japanese car. I know.
Somebody said that the 2XX,000 mile Pinto wasn't the norm. I think he was just making that up. I haven't seen any data on that.
The Vega, which was similar to a Pinto, was its complete opposite. It was worse than the Japanese cars in every way. The worst point was its motor, of course, but it still had a great ability to rust. It just shows that being American wasn't all that important of a consideration. Quality speaks for itself, wherever you're from.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I just had my 71 Pinto out for a ride yesterday. 300K on the clock, no rust. I beat a friends new Honda Pilot on a race up the Joe Palooka mountain When we stopped later he said I didn't know Pintos had a V8, I thought the biggest engine was a V6? I has to lift the hood to show him the 2L four that ran away from his V6 LOL
mike hunt

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 19 Sep 2006 07:16:57 -0700, "Harry in Montreal"

Please... Free health care for auto workers is not possible today and be profitable too. They need to choose between a high wage and they pay for insurance and a lower wage with free insurance. I have likely bought my last Detriot vehicle because I will not pay top dollar for lower quality to pay their generous benifits and it is not about being patriotic either and buying them no matter what because that does not wash anymore. We shell out over 300/month for our contribution to good health care coverage and it goes up every year too so I am very aware of health costs and the "raise" detriot workers get every year with free coverage and a COLA. If their coverage was not free they would not run up medical bill as quickly and help keep costs down and I would love to have free perscriptions too like they do which encourges them to do it often even when not really needed. Maybe I cannot stop it but I will not support it and I am not alone because detriot continues to loose market share and will do so until it and its works wakeup and realize that they have two choices, stay the course and go under one day or radically change and adapt with products, wages, quality because they need to get prices down and quality up and it is impossible unless the wage issue is addressed. The economy will not longer support this. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.