Ford, GM have discussed merger, alliance

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wrote:


Your perception of lower quality doesn't wash. Being a mechanic for a toyo dealership for a number of years, back in the early 90's to mid 90's, opened my eyes to what they really do. Keep everything quite, they had lots of problems with their vehicles, just as much as the domestics if not more. Their customer relations were far better than the domestics, and they bent over backwards to appease the customer, probably what helped keep their perception high.
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Razz, it is not my own perception. it is the collective north american market. yes, toyota dealers bend over backwards - that is why they are successful. japanese initial quality is better than detroit. that is a fact, not opinion. just look at toyota's financial results. look at GM's. don't insult me with conspiracy theories that GM makes just as good of a car (reliability and quality) as toyota. if you truly believe that domestics are a better cars, you should lobby for a seat on Ford's board of directors. Harry in Montreal.
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Insult you! Ha. Probably a brain washed Jap scrap owner who thinks it's better. Initial quality by whom ........a magazine that says so. They also said a Hyundai has better initial quality. Mine 01 Sonata is falling apart after 5 years. Better quality my ass. My mustang hasn't given me a lick of problems nor my wife's Contour. Maybe I've been lucky on my domestics. I've had some that gave me problems, but not as many as the imports. But my 01 Hyundai is a piece of shit I've seen first hand Jap conspiracy on keeping things very quite. That came right from the head office. Remember, I'm a mechanic and worked at a toy store for a while. Like I said been there, done that, seen that. So you insult my intelligence by proclaiming that there initial quality is better. Remember things can be bought for a price. I don't believe any of those J.D.Powers reports or consumers reports, because who pays there bills, their advertisers do.

toyo
opened
bent
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razz wrote:

razz,
uh - okay. you are right. the americans are building better cars than toyota. i really should open my eyes to the market, the product and the corporate conspiracies. ;) Harry
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also
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I've
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price.
Holy shit. Get your facts straight. Not once did I say domestics are building better cars.
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Didn't you just state (rudely) "better quality my a$$" ? PLEASE CLARIFY THEN !
Didnt you start citing you experience as a 'toy' mechanic at a 'toy store' to say that US automaker's quality is at least the same as a toy?
Didnt you start citing the impartiality of commercial auto mags (which i agree with you, by the way) - implying that they are all biased to overstate the reliability and quality of japanese cars (i disagree with you here) ?
So, all together now - i think that you truly believe that a Ford is as good as a Toyota. It seems like you do, especially since you chose to purchase 2.
If i am wrong on all this, then tell me..... *** Are Fords just as good (or better) as a toyota from a quality and reliability perspective? *** No need to swear either, just try to be clear and concise.
Thanks, Harry in Montreal.
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Obviously you have a poor comprehension disability. I stated what I saw and learned as a toy mech. NOWHERE did I say domestics were built better. And yes I do believe there are domestics built very well. I'm not partial to any auto maker,( and have owned lots of different manufacturers ), except for the old 60's-early 70's muscle cars. Yes there are shit vehicles like the cavalier, but what do expect from a $10,000 car, but I've also seen shit cars from the japs. I remember at the dealership I worked at, calling in customers cars for routine checks and free services during the head gasket fiascal at Toyo, which by the way also affected the domestics. They replaced the gaskets without telling the customers. Our Honda accord had worn cam lobes at 30,000 ks, my toyo had gasket problems all the time, and cv problems constantly, so far the fords have not caused any problems. But to be fair , my mustang is a fair weather vehicle, I rebuilt the whole motor at 30,000mile to get 500hps out of it.

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razz wrote:

yes, my comprehension disability is very poor. you are correct, i have strong comprehension skills. that aside, from you clear answers to my questions, i am happy that we agree that japanese cars are better designed and the quality is superior.
saying that 'domestics are built very well' is a pretty strong statement. i suppose they are when you compare them to Daewoo products. oops, they are GM too.
Harry in montreal
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Ah yes. Typing to fast. You obviously don't have comprehensive skills, so you turn to the old ruse of twisting things to agree with your idealisms . Cute.

and
And
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razz wrote:

you typed to fast again. you meant that i do not have good comprehenSION skills. i think that my comprehension skills are exactly that - comprehenSIVE and complete!
anyway, i am no etimologist (i think that is how it is spelled). i'll drop it. back to ford...
i just wanted to point out to you that if you start challenging the quality of a Toy product (media bias, coverups, etc.), and you seem to think that Ford builds 'very good' cars, and you have chosen to own them, then you must be asserting that they are of comparable quality and equally reliable. i disagree. i have owned 3 mustangs (93, 96,01), a 98 z28, and 3 toyotas (98 4run, 03 rav, 03 4run). i have skipped the 81 honda, 88 subie, 78 malibu, 81 volvo, 90 acura, 01 echo, and 85 ciera, 91 stealthTT. overall, i have found the Toy and Honda cars to be far better. but i have loved my mustangs. they had better personality. i dont think they had good quality, nor were of good design. keep in mind (i think you have a 01 GT?) that there is a gas tank between your rear bumper and your diff. this is an antiquated design that is very poor and dangerous in the event of a bad impact. kinda like a pinto actually. that pretty much sums up the brilliant designs and engineering skills of Ford's crack squad. and i do not care that it is built on the old Fox fairmont platform etc.etc. They have chosen to sell a car on a 25 year old platform, to save money, and maximize profit. clearly their plunging market share every quarter reflects the results of this profit/quality trade off ! i know what you stated about those V6 toyota motors failing is true. but look at what a 10 year old 4 runner is worth compared to a ford explorer of the same year. even with a leaky motor, i rather take the 10 year old Toyo on the highway over the ford any day. regardless, i am not attacking 'your' brand, i sure do miss my old 93 5.0 lx. Harry in Montreal.
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Come on. You and I both know that the pinto exploding was a myth. The nhsta proved that in 93 over the nbc fiascal. In fact there were only 27 deaths total from fires, and not all were gas tank impact related. And to even make it explode took an extremely high impact, which occupants would probably not survive. Toyota has that problem with rav rollovers and catching fire. Does the huge recall on the tanks ring a bell.

so
.
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razz wrote:

well, i always thought that the pinto tank design defect was not a myth, but i will keep reading about it. what is this about rav rollovers? i never heard of it. post a link if you can find it. i have a little 03 awd and its a nice little truck for my wife. weak motor, but it runs nicely. Harry
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wrote in message

I can't seem to find it right now, but if you google it you should find lots about them rollovers. People have burned in these rollovers in rav4's, but to be honest about it, I think people drive these like a road rally, and not realizing they can flip allot easier than a car. And it's not just rav4's, All of them can flip easily if one does not know how to handle a 4x4. And the fuel tank leak on a rav4, I guess any vehicle that flips onto the side where you fill would probably leak to some extent, unless the gas cap was designed not to leak. And most vehicles gas tanks will explode on a high speed impact.
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The rav 4 this canadian is so in love with and so sure is better than anything american made, has a roll over rating 1.2 stars meaning it has a 40% chance or better of rolling over in an accident, so says http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/ Now then the Tracker by chevrolet has a 3 star rating, which means between 20% and 30% chance of roll over. The saturn VUE gets the same 3 star rating, so does the Ford Escape. Even the peace of shit Hyandai Santa Fe got three stars.
Whitelightning
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My neightbor has a Sante Fa. Nice vehicle. It is not a peice of shit.
Jeff

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On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 01:27:37 GMT, Jeff wrote:

Have you driven it? It lacks power and stopping ability. That vehicle is way to heavy for the drivetrain and brakes they put in it. The Kia Sportage is the same way though. And the Chevy Equinoxe has some brake issues too - although I believe that they finally put rear discs on the 06s and 07s.
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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:20:06 -0500, razz wrote:

Hyundai is Korean, not Japanese, and the "better initial quality" refers to 03 and up. Before that all Hyundais should've gone straight to the scrapyard. I don't know whoever claimed they were great cars, but they'd need a flocking. Hyundai started out making the worst piece of crap you could find, but have improvd immensely. Todays Hyundais are so much improved that they're actually safe to drive, and not a big moneypit like they used to be. I still wouldn't ever own one - they still have a long way to go to catch up to all the other makers. But for a company that hasn't been making cars for much more than 15 years it's quite an accomplishment.
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You forgot Yugo, Hyundai was great by comparison. If we throw British cars into the mix of choices, I think walking becomes the default selection...
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On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:26:51 +0000, Rocky wrote:

Hehe.... I actually drove one of the original Yugos.
It was scary!!!
The steering wheel still had that excessive plastic on it from the injection molding process and the entire car shook when idling in gear.
I drove it around the block and when I returned to the dealership the salesman asks me "so what did you think"?
I told him I was happy I returned alive...
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On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 22:23:01 -0400, Terry Brannigan

"Yugo call the tow truck while I put out the engine fire..." -- lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
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