You got it ass-backwards. You made a claim about the VIN. You even said your friend who was an engineer at Ford told you were to find the documention.
You show it us the URL which you claimed you know. The exact URL. Don't say search the Dept. of Commerce site. I have.
Jeff
No. The Toyota Sienna has about 85% content. It has a 5, like every other US built Toyota, regardless of content
The first digit of the VIN has nothing to do with content. Show us the URL, and my offer to send $50 to your favoriate charity still stands.
Jeff
Mike,
I say you are wrong. Until you can prove otherwise, I stand correct; SEE - Just because someone can't find a clear document that proves doesn't make you correct.
I have never seen a written reason why the US has multiple first digits. Maybe it is because the US manufacturers asked for multiples. BUT, I have looked and looked and looked and there is absolutely ZERO (nada, none, zip) support for your assertion that the first digit is related to the domestic content of the vehicle. As I have pointed out to you before, V-6 Automatic Mustangs don't count as domestic vehicles because less than 65% of their content is domestic, yet they still get a "1" in the first VIN position. Also, "Incomplete Lincoln Trucks and MPVs" (i.e., Navigators intended for Limo conversions) get a "5" in the first position. Do you think they don't qualify as domestic vehicles?
Here is a valid VIN for Lincoln LT - 5LTPW16547FJ01858. It has a "5" as the first digit. Are you going to claim that this doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle? Run the VIN through the Ford VIN decoder at
Ed
And a V-6 Automatic Mustang has less than 65% doemstic content and still gets a 1. Ed
The "from media reports" bothers me. I know the manufacturer's report the data to NHTSA, but apparently NHTSA is not making it readily available. It also bothers me that I don't recall seeing the domestic content label on my new Fusion (or my SO 2007 RAV4). I still have the window sticker for the Fusion and it is not on that. I assume it must have been on a separate label that I never saw. Next time I get a chance, I plan to stop by the dealer and look for the sticker.
Still, even though the Fusion was assembled in Mexico, many of the components are of US origin, the engineers and other non-assembly line workers are mostly US workers, and the profits (if any), flow to a US based corporation. I know Toyota also employs many non-assembly line workers, but what percentage of the engineers who design Toyota are based in the US? Do you really want a country full of poorly paid assembly line workers? Wouldn't you like to at least maintian a trained force of engineers? Ford, GM, and Chrysler support many retired workers. If they go belly up, many of those retirees will end up being supported by you and me. Is that a good thing? 15 years from now, if the car business goes south do you think Toyota won't cut and run from the US if it suits their financial needs?
You are waiting in vain. Mike is wrong about his claim that the first digit of the VIN has anything to do with domestic content. Mercury and Lincoln trucks and SUVs get 4's and 5's for the first digit. I doubt even Mike would claim a Lincoln LT doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle.
Ed
The Lincoln LT gets a "5" for the first digit. It is built in the same plant of mostly the same parts as an F150. Are you going to claim the Lincoln LT does not qualify as a domestic vehicle while the F150 does? Doesn't this prove you wrong? Go on, you can admit it....
Ed
I have:
'By international agreement, a WMI is assigned according to region. Initially, the United States had all WMI codes that started with the number
'"We were assuming we were always going to be 1, originally," Proefke said. "Now we're 1, 4 and 5. And we don't have that many left of 5."'
When the VIN system was started in 1981, the US was assigned '1' as the first digit for the WMI (World Manufacturer ID) for all of its automakers. The big automakers, like Ford, GM and Chrysler got more than one WMI, for different brands and types of vehicles. Smaller vehicle makers, like Harley, Catapillar, Seagrave, Mack, AMC, Divco, got fewer or only one. Trailer and some off-road vehicles also got WMIs (off-road vehicles now have thier own VIN system). But there were so many makers that the US was later assigned 4 and 5. I would think that the International Standards Organization, which is responsible for the worldwide system (SAE is responsible for the US implementation, assigned by the US gov't), would have assigned the US 1, 2 and 3 from the get-go, if they knew the US would need 3 digits.
Well, considering that nearly identical vehicles from Ford get a '1,' I would think so. All Lincoln trucks get a 5, while all Mercury trucks get a '4' and all Ford trucks get a '1', even when they come off the same assembly line.
No Mercury trucks get a 1 or 5, no Lincoln trucks get a 1 or 4 and no Fords get a 4 or 5.
All Toyotas get a 5, despite the fact that Toyotas, as a whole, are 48% domestic. I guess that means that Toyota uses far more US parts on the cars that it imports from Japan than it builds in the US.
Didn't Lincoln and Mercury first start building trucks in the late 90s or early 00s? After they ran out of 1's as the first number of the VIN?
Didn't you see the US code where they describe the VIN? Oopsie. Doesn't say a word about US content.
Absolutely no evidence that he is correct, plenty of evidence that he is not correct. Gee, are you sure his claim is bogus? I am.
Jeff
We are in violent agreement.
Ed
It bothers me, too. But I don't know of a better source. I can go to the NY Auto Show in April and look at the stickers. But, it doesn't give a good average.
Toyota has two engineering centers in the US, in California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think the Tundra was completely designed in the US. Some of the SUVs I think are too. A lot of vehicles get exterior design done in the US, too. The center in Ann Arbor is Toyota's largest engineering center outside of Japan.
No, but the Toyota workers are not poorly paid, although they don't get pay or benefits that the big 3 pay.
If the big 3 go belly up, their pensions go to the US Pension Guarenty Board (or something like that). Once the pensions go to the board, there are limits on the pensions which means that the retirees will still get pensions, but they will be smaller. It may be that the pensions have enough money that it won't be a net loss the taxpayers.
The bad thing is that if people get pensions, the pensions come from the companies, not the government, like in every other country. So that means that US companies have a cost that their competitors overseas don't have, pensions and healthcare.
The only way it will go south is if the US economy goes south.
The thing is that with 300,000,000+ people, the US will still be a huge car market, although probably not the biggest.
Oh, come on. Mercuries come with a 4. So Ford brings in the extra parts from Canada. And it brings in more extra parts for Lincoln. It does this for all the Lincoln and Mercury SUVs and trucks, even when they are built on the same assembly lines as the '1' Fords. It is part of their VIN reduction plan. And Toyota sends US parts to Japan for US-bound cars, but uses Japanese parts in US cars, as part of its VIN reduction plan. ;-)
Funny how Mike was able to tell me which part of the Commonwealth of PA code has the stuff about speed limit violations, but has been unable to tell more than searth the Department of Commerce web site for the VIN stuff.
I guess that is his URL reduction plan. ;-)
Too bad he doesn't. His favoriate charity will $50 when he shows us the URL.
Jeff
It bothers me, too. But I don't know of a better source. I can go to the NY Auto Show in April and look at the stickers. But, it doesn't give a good average.
Toyota has two engineering centers in the US, in California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think the Tundra was completely designed in the US. Some of the SUVs I think are too. A lot of vehicles get exterior design done in the US, too. The center in Ann Arbor is Toyota's largest engineering center outside of Japan.
No, but the Toyota workers are not poorly paid, although they don't get pay or benefits that the big 3 pay.
If the big 3 go belly up, their pensions go to the US Pension Guarenty Board (or something like that). Once the pensions go to the board, there are limits on the pensions which means that the retirees will still get pensions, but they will be smaller. It may be that the pensions have enough money that it won't be a net loss the taxpayers.
The bad thing is that if people get pensions, the pensions come from the companies, not the government, like in every other country. So that means that US companies have a cost that their competitors overseas don't have, pensions and healthcare.
The only way it will go south is if the US economy goes south.
The thing is that with 300,000,000+ people, the US will still be a huge car market, although probably not the biggest.
Oh, come on. Mercuries come with a 4. So Ford brings in the extra parts from Canada. And it brings in more extra parts for Lincoln. It does this for all the Lincoln and Mercury SUVs and trucks, even when they are built on the same assembly lines as the '1' Fords. It is part of their VIN reduction plan. And Toyota sends US parts to Japan for US-bound cars, but uses Japanese parts in US cars, as part of its VIN reduction plan. ;-)
Funny how Mike was able to tell me which part of the Commonwealth of PA code has the stuff about speed limit violations, but has been unable to tell more than searth the Department of Commerce web site for the VIN stuff.
I guess that is his URL reduction plan. ;-)
Too bad he doesn't. His favoriate charity will $50 when he shows us the URL.
Jeff
You got it ass-backwards. You made a claim about the VIN that 4 and 5 were because, 'they are running out of VIN numbers' that you have yet to verify. ;)
mike
If you know the percentage of US content for the Sienna then you must have found the Commerce Department site, but misread what you saw there . Me thinks your are referring to the NAP label ;)
I would not embarrass myself by having a measly $50 donate in my name to any charity. ;)
mike
Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly line. What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?'
mike
You are confusing the NAP label with US content. Look at the NAP label on a Japanese built Camry with a 'J.' I too will bear a NAP label showing a high percentage of NA parts when it fact it has none.
mike
Are you trying to suggest that because the LT gets a "5" it doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle, while the F150 does? You are delusional. The first digit has nothing to do with domestic content. Admit it or provide a clear reference. All Lincoln trucks get a "5" as the first digit. All Mercury "trucks" get a "4." There is no way even you can think that at least some of them qualify as domestic vehicles.
Ed
The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one.
mike
. Mercury and Lincoln
What evidence is that? Were is your evidence that 'they ran out of VINs starting with '1?' Where is your evidence that a Mercury, Lincoln or Ford could possibly have the same VIN sequence, even if all were built in the same plant with the same level of US content, not just vehicle line NA content? ;)
mike
You are so full of s*^t on this one. Provide some proof. All Lincoln trucks get a "5" for the first digit, all Mercury trucks get a "4" for the first digit. Do you honestly want to claim that a Mercury Mountaineer has significantly different domestic content than a Ford Explorer (all of which get a "1")?
You have no proof, you blow off anything that doesn't support your erroneous claims, what should I think?
Ed
Evidence that the interior is made in Canada?
Jeff
You still haven't explained why a V-6 Automatic Mustang which doesn't have 65% domestic content still gets a 1 as the first digit of the VIN. You haven't explained why a Mercury Mountaineer which has more than 75% domestic content has a 4 as the first digit.
And what the heck is the NAP label? Is this the Domestic Content Label?
Can you actually separate out US and Canadian content? I though all Canadian content counted towards the "domestic" content for everyone's vehicles.
Ed
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