Fusion getting good marks?

Page 2 of 3  
Get real, no wonder you are confused. The VIN, by design, whether using 1, 4 or 5, from the same manufacturer, on the exact same vehicles, of the exact
same sequential built number changes annually. Even then, the check digit can be changed to allow for another 999,999 vehicles built exactly the same. One will run out of sales before they run out of VINs evn on one individual model. If they run out of manufacturers they can simply add one more digit for thousands more manufactures
mike

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Mike,
I say you are wrong. Until you can prove otherwise, I stand correct; SEE - Just because someone can't find a clear document that proves doesn't make you correct.
I have never seen a written reason why the US has multiple first digits. Maybe it is because the US manufacturers asked for multiples. BUT, I have looked and looked and looked and there is absolutely ZERO (nada, none, zip) support for your assertion that the first digit is related to the domestic content of the vehicle. As I have pointed out to you before, V-6 Automatic Mustangs don't count as domestic vehicles because less than 65% of their content is domestic, yet they still get a "1" in the first VIN position. Also, "Incomplete Lincoln Trucks and MPVs" (i.e., Navigators intended for Limo conversions) get a "5" in the first position. Do you think they don't qualify as domestic vehicles?
Here is a valid VIN for Lincoln LT - 5LTPW16547FJ01858. It has a "5" as the first digit. Are you going to claim that this doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle? Run the VIN through the Ford VIN decoder at https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/default.asp and you will see it was manufactured at the Ford truck plant in Dearborn. 5LMFL27577LJ12195 is the VIN for a Navigator. Do you think it doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle? 4M2YU80Z97KJ10414 is a valid VIN for a Mercury Mariner. Is this not a domestic vehicle? A similar Ford Escape has a valid VIN of 1FMYU02Z47KA04856. Why does this get a 1 and the Mariner get a 4 if domestic content is the determining factor for the first digit? 4M2EU38E47UJ00417 is a valid VIN for a Mercury Mountaineer. 1FMEU63E17UA48125 is a valid VIN for a similar Ford Explorer. Does the the Explorer qualify as domestic and the Mountaineer not domestic? (BTW, I pulled all these VIN off of vehicles in stock at local dealers - they are not made up numbers).
Instead of trying to deflect attention from your erroneous claims, just prove us all wrong by clearly and completely identifying a document that supports your claim that the first digit of the VIN is related to domestic contents. If you can't do that, then quit making the bogus claim.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I have: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-01-vin-shortage_x.htm . It says, in part:
'By international agreement, a WMI is assigned according to region. Initially, the United States had all WMI codes that started with the number 1.
'"We were assuming we were always going to be 1, originally," Proefke said. "Now we're 1, 4 and 5. And we don't have that many left of 5."'
When the VIN system was started in 1981, the US was assigned '1' as the first digit for the WMI (World Manufacturer ID) for all of its automakers. The big automakers, like Ford, GM and Chrysler got more than one WMI, for different brands and types of vehicles. Smaller vehicle makers, like Harley, Catapillar, Seagrave, Mack, AMC, Divco, got fewer or only one. Trailer and some off-road vehicles also got WMIs (off-road vehicles now have thier own VIN system). But there were so many makers that the US was later assigned 4 and 5. I would think that the International Standards Organization, which is responsible for the worldwide system (SAE is responsible for the US implementation, assigned by the US gov't), would have assigned the US 1, 2 and 3 from the get-go, if they knew the US would need 3 digits.

Well, considering that nearly identical vehicles from Ford get a '1,' I would think so. All Lincoln trucks get a 5, while all Mercury trucks get a '4' and all Ford trucks get a '1', even when they come off the same assembly line.
No Mercury trucks get a 1 or 5, no Lincoln trucks get a 1 or 4 and no Fords get a 4 or 5.
All Toyotas get a 5, despite the fact that Toyotas, as a whole, are 48% domestic. I guess that means that Toyota uses far more US parts on the cars that it imports from Japan than it builds in the US.

Didn't Lincoln and Mercury first start building trucks in the late 90s or early 00s? After they ran out of 1's as the first number of the VIN?

Didn't you see the US code where they describe the VIN? Oopsie. Doesn't say a word about US content.
Absolutely no evidence that he is correct, plenty of evidence that he is not correct. Gee, are you sure his claim is bogus? I am.
Jeff
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

We are in violent agreement.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
What evidence is that? Were is your evidence that 'they ran out of VINs starting with '1?' Where is your evidence that a Mercury, Lincoln or Ford could possibly have the same VIN sequence, even if all were built in the same plant with the same level of US content, not just vehicle line NA content? ;)
mike

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly line. What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?'
mike

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Are you trying to suggest that because the LT gets a "5" it doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle, while the F150 does? You are delusional. The first digit has nothing to do with domestic content. Admit it or provide a clear reference. All Lincoln trucks get a "5" as the first digit. All Mercury "trucks" get a "4." There is no way even you can think that at least some of them qualify as domestic vehicles.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

In addition, I don't think NAFTA would even allow the first digit of the VIN to reflect US content as opposed to US + Canadian content. Then again, there is no US law or code which requires that the first letter of the VIN represent anything other than the country of manufacture.
For each combination of manufacturer (Lincoln | Ford | Mercury | Mazda ) and vehicle type (passenger car, MPV, truck, etc.), the VIN in positions 1, 2 and 3 is unique. https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/pdfs/VIN2007.pdf
That means Ford doesn't even has the posibility of changing the first digit according to content. And Ford makes zero vehicles under the Ford brand with a VIN that begins with a 4 or 5. If Mike is correct, then, it makes *all* of its Ford tvehicles with > 70% US content, but none of its Mercury, Mazda or Lincoln trucks or SUVs with > 70% content and some those vehicles (nearly identical to Fords built on the same assembly line with the same NA content) with < 40% US content? Mike, that doesn't make sense.
And if the content was reflected in the VIN, don't you think that somebody else would know this and report it on the web? Not one other source I found said word 1 about this. You would think it would be mentioned at least in passing by automotive magazines or other press reports, in the government web pages, in the US code, mentioned in passing on the tables that list the WMIs, like the one I referenced from Ford.
Jeff
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
message

We should give up trying to correct Mike. I suspect Mike knows he is wrong and is to self righteous to admit it, or he is just plain stupid. If he had any actual proof, he would have posted it long ago. Instead he ignores any proof to the contrary and alludes to mysterious proof that no one else is able to find. It is an old tactic for crooks and liars. Hopefully Mike is just to stubborn to admit he is wrong. I'd hate to think he was a crook or a liar. I had much rather think he is just mistaken and stubborn.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yep, I agree.
Shame, though. Mike's not stupid, just, apparently, stuburn.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The Lincoln LT gets a "5" for the first digit. It is built in the same plant of mostly the same parts as an F150. Are you going to claim the Lincoln LT does not qualify as a domestic vehicle while the F150 does? Doesn't this prove you wrong? Go on, you can admit it....
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The "from media reports" bothers me. I know the manufacturer's report the data to NHTSA, but apparently NHTSA is not making it readily available. It also bothers me that I don't recall seeing the domestic content label on my new Fusion (or my SO 2007 RAV4). I still have the window sticker for the Fusion and it is not on that. I assume it must have been on a separate label that I never saw. Next time I get a chance, I plan to stop by the dealer and look for the sticker.
Still, even though the Fusion was assembled in Mexico, many of the components are of US origin, the engineers and other non-assembly line workers are mostly US workers, and the profits (if any), flow to a US based corporation. I know Toyota also employs many non-assembly line workers, but what percentage of the engineers who design Toyota are based in the US? Do you really want a country full of poorly paid assembly line workers? Wouldn't you like to at least maintian a trained force of engineers? Ford, GM, and Chrysler support many retired workers. If they go belly up, many of those retirees will end up being supported by you and me. Is that a good thing? 15 years from now, if the car business goes south do you think Toyota won't cut and run from the US if it suits their financial needs?

You are waiting in vain. Mike is wrong about his claim that the first digit of the VIN has anything to do with domestic content. Mercury and Lincoln trucks and SUVs get 4's and 5's for the first digit. I doubt even Mike would claim a Lincoln LT doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<...>

It bothers me, too. But I don't know of a better source. I can go to the NY Auto Show in April and look at the stickers. But, it doesn't give a good average.

Toyota has two engineering centers in the US, in California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think the Tundra was completely designed in the US. Some of the SUVs I think are too. A lot of vehicles get exterior design done in the US, too. The center in Ann Arbor is Toyota's largest engineering center outside of Japan.

No, but the Toyota workers are not poorly paid, although they don't get pay or benefits that the big 3 pay.

If the big 3 go belly up, their pensions go to the US Pension Guarenty Board (or something like that). Once the pensions go to the board, there are limits on the pensions which means that the retirees will still get pensions, but they will be smaller. It may be that the pensions have enough money that it won't be a net loss the taxpayers.

The bad thing is that if people get pensions, the pensions come from the companies, not the government, like in every other country. So that means that US companies have a cost that their competitors overseas don't have, pensions and healthcare.

The only way it will go south is if the US economy goes south.
The thing is that with 300,000,000+ people, the US will still be a huge car market, although probably not the biggest.

Oh, come on. Mercuries come with a 4. So Ford brings in the extra parts from Canada. And it brings in more extra parts for Lincoln. It does this for all the Lincoln and Mercury SUVs and trucks, even when they are built on the same assembly lines as the '1' Fords. It is part of their VIN reduction plan. And Toyota sends US parts to Japan for US-bound cars, but uses Japanese parts in US cars, as part of its VIN reduction plan. ;-)
Funny how Mike was able to tell me which part of the Commonwealth of PA code has the stuff about speed limit violations, but has been unable to tell more than searth the Department of Commerce web site for the VIN stuff.
I guess that is his URL reduction plan. ;-)
Too bad he doesn't. His favoriate charity will $50 when he shows us the URL.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<...>

It bothers me, too. But I don't know of a better source. I can go to the NY Auto Show in April and look at the stickers. But, it doesn't give a good average.

Toyota has two engineering centers in the US, in California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think the Tundra was completely designed in the US. Some of the SUVs I think are too. A lot of vehicles get exterior design done in the US, too. The center in Ann Arbor is Toyota's largest engineering center outside of Japan.

No, but the Toyota workers are not poorly paid, although they don't get pay or benefits that the big 3 pay.

If the big 3 go belly up, their pensions go to the US Pension Guarenty Board (or something like that). Once the pensions go to the board, there are limits on the pensions which means that the retirees will still get pensions, but they will be smaller. It may be that the pensions have enough money that it won't be a net loss the taxpayers.

The bad thing is that if people get pensions, the pensions come from the companies, not the government, like in every other country. So that means that US companies have a cost that their competitors overseas don't have, pensions and healthcare.

The only way it will go south is if the US economy goes south.
The thing is that with 300,000,000+ people, the US will still be a huge car market, although probably not the biggest.

Oh, come on. Mercuries come with a 4. So Ford brings in the extra parts from Canada. And it brings in more extra parts for Lincoln. It does this for all the Lincoln and Mercury SUVs and trucks, even when they are built on the same assembly lines as the '1' Fords. It is part of their VIN reduction plan. And Toyota sends US parts to Japan for US-bound cars, but uses Japanese parts in US cars, as part of its VIN reduction plan. ;-)
Funny how Mike was able to tell me which part of the Commonwealth of PA code has the stuff about speed limit violations, but has been unable to tell more than searth the Department of Commerce web site for the VIN stuff.
I guess that is his URL reduction plan. ;-)
Too bad he doesn't. His favoriate charity will $50 when he shows us the URL.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one.
mike
. Mercury and Lincoln

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You are so full of s*^t on this one. Provide some proof. All Lincoln trucks get a "5" for the first digit, all Mercury trucks get a "4" for the first digit. Do you honestly want to claim that a Mercury Mountaineer has significantly different domestic content than a Ford Explorer (all of which get a "1")?
You have no proof, you blow off anything that doesn't support your erroneous claims, what should I think?
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I never said all Lincoln trucks get a "5" for the first digit, all Mercury trucks get a "4" Some Aviators have a 4 as well.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.