Hybrid Lovers Read This and Lament

Hold on there Daniel!

The battery industry is well able to come up with aftermarket replacement batteries for these cars. They aren't doing so now because there's no demand for them - because the warranties are all still in effect.

The dollar values of these battery packs are funny money, they are accounting fictions. Since the automakers pays for the warranty replacement of the battery, the automakers can price them however they want.

Consider for a moment this scenario. Honda could have figured out even before commencing manufacture that the battery pack will fail at least 1 time under warranty. We also know that Honda is probably losing $2,000 on every new hybrid they manufacture.

So Honda decided to engage in a bit of creative accounting. In order to minimize the loss on each car that they manufacture, they understate the actual cost of the battey pack by $2000. Thus while the real dollar amount they are losing on every new car is $4,000, because the battery pack is underestimated, the loss looks less than it is really.

Now, they have to get the money for these understated batteries somewhere. That's where the overinflated $8000 warranty battery comes in. Because it's a warranty, Honda can argue next year to it's stockholders that they didn't know warranty costs on the hybrids would be so high, thus their profits are down. In the meantime the $8000 warranty batteries are actually subsidizing the cost of the new batteries.

You have to assume that Honda's and Toyota's stockholders will tolerate some loss on hybrids, as a skunkworks market. But they won't tolerate it for very long, and they won't tolerate it if it's pretty massive. If the loss gets to high the investors will force those companies to jettison hybrid production. So if Honda's managers want to continue building and losing money on hybrids, they are going to have to do some creative accounting tricks to hide some of the losses on these cars. Pushing the loss out of the manufacturing cost bucket and into the warranty claims bucket is one of these tricks.

Why are you thinking that these cars batteries are going to be replaced by NiMH? My guess is the aftermarket battery industry will come out with a lead acid gel cell conventional technology retrofit battery for these cars, that will cost a quarter of the NiMH. Obviously the fuel mileage will suffer but not a lot, and the battery industry is under no obligation to manufacture a part that will retain the existing mileage. All that would probably need to be done is a reprogrammed battery computer to be installed that will properly maintain charge on a lead acid pack.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt
Loading thread data ...

Around $30 to $60 for a lead acid battery. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to produce enough voltage? ;)

mike

"Ted Mittelstaedt" >

Reply to
Mike Hunter

You must have way too much time on your hands to be spending it nitpicking on usenet over spelling and grammar. Now go back to that high school and make the kids there miserable like so many teachers do.

John

Reply to
John Horner

John Horner, was motivated to say this in rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:31:09 GMT:

Judy spends its free time (when its not showing its silliness in r.a.d.) by sitting out in the back porch of its trailer wearing a tinfoil hat and watching for black helicopters with UN logos piloted by grey aliens...

Reply to
necromancer

Absolutely idiotic! Changing the oil at 3000 mile intervals is wasteful enough given that modern oils are generally good to 7000 or more miles,

1500 is just flat stupid. But what I'd expect from an "environmental responsibility is for everyone BUT me" liberal...
Reply to
Steve

Here we go again!

NOT if that coincides with every three months on a grocery getter..

BUT!

Lubing joints that often MAY be bad... tends to burst boots and seals, leading to premature failure, UNLESS you are very careful.

Reply to
Backyard Mechanic

Steve, was motivated to say this in rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:24:42 -0600:

Or a speed limits are for everyone BUT me nincompoop...

Reply to
necromancer

I got an old car. Not old enough to have points mind you; it does use electronic ignition. But even with EI i don't believe that 30K miles stuff. Same with greasing the front end. Every 1000 miles sounds like overkill to some people but i think it's a good idea.

Reply to
Laura Bush murdered her boy fr

Uh, Judy hasn't been to high school yet.

Reply to
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantM

Mike Hunter wrote: > Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to > produce enough voltage? ;)

Put two 9 volt transistor radio batteries in series and you have enough

*voltage* - I can carry that in my pocket. I think you mean enough power - voltage is only half the equation. :)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Only person I've ever known to switch the plugs out every 10k or so did so at the end of his vehicle's life, and ended up selling his POS beater for scrap. Damned thing belched so much smoke when it was running (which was rare) and it's idling (if it could be considered idling) was horrendous. Guy had to keep one foot on the brake and one on the gas at stop signs to make sure the thing wouldn't choke out.

Reply to
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantM

Hydrides use higher voltage to produce the proper amperage to do the work. To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce more amps. Ask Mr. Ohms ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Better do some research on how the hybrid systems in the Pruis and the Escape operate, if that is what you believe. When I drove them, while running below a certain speed the electric motor alone did the motivating. The engine did not come on until they were up to speed or when the HVAC system was operating

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

OK I was not entirely correct. They would NOT need to design a trailer for the LA batteries, they will need to design one for the LA batteries AND an engine driven generator. Ask Mr. Ohms this question. Why are the 12v battery and the starter in my V8 Lincoln so much larger then the ones in a motorcycle, neither one of which needs to motivates the vehicle in question? Why don't they just use 8 AAA batteries and a starter the size of a windshield wiper motor? ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I think Mr. Ohms did not give you a complete reply when you asked him.

Different battery technologies have different voltages per CELL. A normal flashlight battery is a single cell that produces 1.5v. NiCd battery cells produce a little under 1.5v. Lead acid battery cells produce 2v per cell

-- a normal 12v battery has 6 cells in series.

There are 2 other factors that are key to battery usage:

  1. Internal resistance. This really determines how large a current the battery can deliver.
  2. Capacity: how long can the battery deliver the necessary current?

Now, to replace a battery with one of a different type, one would have to match the voltage and the internal resistance (otherwise it would not produce the necessary power) of the original. To build a small 48v LA battery is not hard -- it just requires 24 cells, each of which could be quite small. The overall size need not be bigger than a standard 12v battery.

The next question becomes the capacity -- or really, the energy storage density. How much energy can you store in a given weight or size?

Finally, as was mentioned earlier, charging would likely be a problem when replacing one type of battery with another: a charging profile that works well for one battery technology may kill another quite quickly.

So, it's not just about what Mr. Ohm says, but also what Mr. Capacity says and Mr. charging profile.

So, the question should be: Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to store enough energy?

Reply to
Whoever

Whoever wrote: >

Exactly. I didn't realize they used a nominal 48V. So to modify what I said in my previous, you could get the 48 volts still with a pocketful (6) of 9-volt transistor radio batteries. Like you said - you have to have the energy/power. That's why I said that voltage is only half the equation.

Since we're being picky, as with all units named after a person, the convention is to capitalize the 'V' when *abbreviating* "volts", and to

*not* capitalize it when writing it out. For example, you would write "48 volt battery", or "48V battery". :)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

I am not claiming that they use 48V. This may be correct, or not. I have read that there are some plans to move all vehicle systems to 48V.

Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered that. I have even been to Volta's birthplace.

Reply to
Whoever

We can only hope that you return to Volta's birthplace soon and spare us further painfully boring rhetoric. You two could drive old people to fornicate!

Reply to
Grayfox

:-)

Very funny, I'll admit I laughed.

But seriously, in a hybrid, the battery is simply used to store braking energy, it is not used as power source like batteries are in an electric car. The energy comes from the gasoline engine, the battery capacity only needs to be big enough to store a reserve.

formatting link
has already demonstrated a working electricvehicle retrofit on the Prius that REPLACES the existing Prius NiMH battery and Toyota battery control computer. They aren't selling it yet - for obvious reasons - no demand since all the Priuses are still under battery warranty. But their install keeps the gasoline engine, which means that for a Prius to be a candidate for this company, it really needs to have a shot battery that isn't under warranty, and a gasoline engine that is expected to last at least for the following decade, in order to cover the expected life of the replacement system

I think this is not a particularly valid approach - because Toyota's battery warranty is going to insure that by the time the battery comes off warranty, that the gasoline engine in the Prius will be shot.

A better approach I think is to gut the battery and engine and computer and all that garbage out of the vehicle, and install an even larger battery pack and charger and make it fully an electric vehicle. It would, of course, kill it's usefulness for long distance interstate drives of hundreds of miles, but it would be still very useful as an around-the-town vehicle.

The General Motors EV-1 program demonstrated that there IS a market for fully electric vehicles. Lots of people screamed when GM took back their EV1s. The problem with the GM initative is that the demand wasn't large enough for GM to make the EV1 profitably.

BUT, in a decade or so when there's lots of used Priuses that have shot batteries, not under warranty, and shot gasoline engines, why then the economics will be quite different.

There have been people doing electric cars for years - Flight Systems Inc. for example sold plans to convert a Chevy Chevette to full electric, using a 6 volt lead acid battery bank, back in 1982, that would go 30-40 miles on a single charge. A book "build your own electric vehicle" by Bob Bryant in 1994 did a 1993 Ford Ranger pickup conversion that would go 75Mph and got 60 miles to the charge that also used lead-acid batteries.

The only difference between these two more low-tech approaches and the higher-tech edrivesystems approach, is the edrivesystems approach uses lithion ion batteries, and a computer to manage power and charging, while the older designs used simpler electronics and lead-acid batteries. The higher-tech approach is more expensive and gets you a greater range, but the lower-tech approach could be done by anyone in their garage.

So yes, I do think that when the warranty ends on the traction battery in a hybrid, that there will be lots of choices other than to drop $5000 into a new traction battery, into a vehicle that probably has about 4 years of life left in it's gasoline engine.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.