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C. E. White wrote:


Here's a big, time-saving hint, Ed: Life ain't fair. It isn't supposed to be. Get over it.
However, most large corporations are run

Oh, geeze. Here we go with the class envy.

Yep, that's why GM is in business: to rip off the little guy.
Silly me, I thought they built vehicles and provided financing.
If stock holders

Well, duh! Did you just figure this out? Of *course* it's gambling, *who* told you otherwise? Some MBA?
The big players (banks,

Guess what, Ed: everyone tries to cast their job performance in the best possible light. That is simple human nature. If you really expect otherwise, you're badly misinformed.
As far as living like a Sultan is concerned: I've got *no* argument with anybody who has the means to live in the manner they so choose. They don't bother me, and I'm quite sure I don't bother them. Most contribute *far* more than their fair share to society through their efforts and taxes, and dammit, I'm not going to be the one to try and take their chosen lifestyle away from them. I may not always agree with how they live, and I may not want to be like them, but does it hurt me that they do so? Absolutely not. I just hope they buy enough cars and computers to make for a persistent, positive upswing in the parts of the economy that concern me, and as for the rest, that's between them and their maker (if any.)
--Geoff
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market share and is forced to go after a completely different market in order to survive. (tells one more about the banking industry than it does the auto sector)

prospectus? or an Audit? The people at Enron & Tyco forgot about those as well.

Hmm... If you realized how little effort many of these people at the top put in to get or retain their positions you may well change your view (perhaps time will be a patient enough educator for you) if it doesn't upset you at the moment because you do not feel affect feel blessed. However don't forget another place and time ("let them eat cake") where there was a similar massive class divide. ("Petite Bourgeois") which was followed by a change in the economic structure & the ensuing "removal of the heads" of various establishments.
The people of France suffered quite badly, the elite's only suffered very briefly whilst their heads were removed.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We should be striving for a Meritocracy not a return to Feudal rule under any other name.
PS this isn't intended as a personal attack, merely a critique of your points.
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Full_Name wrote:

Look, the world changed in the 1970s, and America's borders started to open up. You expected GM to retain the market share it had in the 1960s when there was virtually NO foreign competition worth mentioning?

Like I said before, what they make and what they do to get it is none of my damn business, and I think it ought to be viewed as same by everyone else. That said, I posited some *really good* reasons why the people on top make the money they do. Debate those, whydontcha?
However don't forget another place and time ("let them eat

Good Lord, 'class divide'? Horsepucky. The 'class divide' is being manufactured by the American Left. It's a complete fabrication!
Everyone else seems to realize that you get what you want in this country through creativity, dedication and effort.

There's no danger of a return to feudalism in America. And I tire quickly of comparisons between (socialist) Europe and the United States. Of course Europe's economy sucks and the U.S. people get paid better and have a higher standard of living. This comes as a surprise to you?
Europe's problem is that it has been seduced by socialism and leftist policy. Things will get far, far worse there before they improve.

I appreciate the distinction.
--Geoff
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I don't know how it works in the US but in the UK there is often little connection between top executive pay and share-price performance. To think that a plummeting stock-price always results in overpaid execs getting pay cuts is a pipe dream. It's become an issue in the UK and, indeed, the CEO of GlaxoSmithKline (world's second-largest pharma company, an Anglo-American corporation) was recently forced to take an emoluments cut because of a shareholder revolt.
It may not be my business what a specific CEO gets if I am not a shareholder, but it CAN BE viewed as a social issue. To think that remuneration committees and executives are not in a back-scratching society is naivety. In Europe many executives from, e.g. German and Dutch financial institutions were shocked at the salaries in the Anglo-Saxon companies they acquired in London. In fact, it has been rumoured that one reason that Daimler-Benz was so keen to get involved in the USA and be listed on the NYSE was so that its CEO (Juergen Schrempp) could have a vastly-inflated US-level salary.
Sorry, but NO person is worth a salary of 14 million dollars a year to run even GM. Bill Gates and Steve Balmer are 'worth' their zillions because they are owners/shareholders of a cash-manufacturing machine they started, and good luck to them. Does anybody honestly believe that a GM CEO would do the job less well if paid a quarter of the present salary??? People at that level do that job for many reasons, including power.
DAS
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On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Geoff wrote:

Ah. Everyone ought to think just like you do. Understood.

Sure. So then there's no such thing as Americans who lack access to basic healthcare, for instance?
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That's true the truly poor get their health care for free. It's called Medicaid if not that then it is free via the Hill Burtan Act. LOL
mike hunt
"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

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| On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Geoff wrote: | | > what they make and what they do to get it is none of my damn business, | > and I think it ought to be viewed as same by everyone else. | | Ah. Everyone ought to think just like you do. Understood. | | > Good Lord, 'class divide'? Horsepucky. The 'class divide' is being | > manufactured by the American Left. It's a complete fabrication! | | Sure. So then there's no such thing as Americans who lack access to basic | healthcare, for instance? |
Those that I know (including some family members) that don't have health insurance is because they don't want to pay for it. They can easily afford it and they simply choose not to get it. "Access" is truly not the problem some politicians claim. Everyone can buy health insurance here in the states if they choose to...it is available.
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James C. Reeves wrote:

Hi...
Yup. The thousands of homeless americans should just run right out and buy it.
Ken
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If you knew anything about the available medical care in the US you would know the homeless receive their medical car at no cost to them, the taxpayers pick up the tab via one of several free medical care programs provide by the federal and state governments.
Ken Weitzel wrote:

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| > | On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Geoff wrote: | > | | > | > what they make and what they do to get it is none of my damn business, | > | > and I think it ought to be viewed as same by everyone else. | > | | > | Ah. Everyone ought to think just like you do. Understood. | > | | > | > Good Lord, 'class divide'? Horsepucky. The 'class divide' is being | > | > manufactured by the American Left. It's a complete fabrication! | > | | > | Sure. So then there's no such thing as Americans who lack access to basic | > | healthcare, for instance? | > | | > | > Those that I know (including some family members) that don't have health | > insurance is because they don't want to pay for it. They can easily afford it | > and they simply choose not to get it. "Access" is truly not the problem some | > politicians claim. Everyone can buy health insurance here in the states if | > they choose to...it is available. | > | | Hi... | | Yup. The thousands of homeless americans should just | run right out and buy it. | | Ken |
Those people likely have bigger problems than health insurance...like why they aren't taking advantage of available social services that would remedy the situation you describe. That is available also. At some point one has to decide to help themselves.
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Unfortuantely those programs do not have the funds to handle the need. The money is going to Iraq.

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| Unfortuantely those programs do not have the funds to handle the need. The | money is going to Iraq. |
No, the funds are there for those that seek it. Site a source that has documented that large numbers of people are being turned down their request for aid for lack of funds. Usually they're turned down because they won't meet the conditions for the aid (things like submit job applications).
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The homeless americans can get a J-O-B. I know its a rough situation here for some people. I know I am in one myself. But there are jobs. Truth is a lot of homeless people don't want to do anything. Thus if you don't want to work for it, you shouldn't get it. This isn't a vacation.
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Dunno what's it's like in the US but in the UK quite a few homeless are mentally ill and need looking after and not instructions from warm and comfortable people on high to get a job. They're on the streets because the government closed many mental institutions and tipped the inmates into "Care in the Community", a well-meaning move that assumed these people had relatives who would take of them.
How many homeless have you spoken to or read about?
DAS
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Exactly true in the US too plus there are plenty of working homeless.

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Although a certain number of homeless in the US are on the streets rather than in extended-care/half-way house situations, the vast majority are in other categories: 1) single-parent households (usually mother and children) that have been abandoned by the father, 2) low-wage transient laborers who don't have the financial capability to rent (or who are saving all their money and will move back to their permanent home after the work season), and 3) the congenitally un-employed/homeless that just like it - some of these are professional mendicants (ie, beggars).
Floyd
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There are certainly other groups - I was only highlighting one group that grew substantially in the UK substantially at the point of closure of what were long-stay hospitals a few years ago. (It must be said that many of these buildings were inefficient and Victorian, but the government chose not to replace them.)
I am aware of some homeless who like it that way, whatever the reason, but I am sure they are a small percentage.
The rest don't want to be there.
DAS
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We have some mentally ill patients, many of which, at least in Michigan, were given the boot to the street when we got rid of the last few 'insane asylum's' that we had in the area. The last one to close in the area was over 100 years old, but the state no longer felt like funding it. We have a few homeless that are mentally ill, but I don't forsee it making up a majority. A majority of the homeless, or I guess I should say beggars, are men. Some honestly want help and admit it. But others just want to booze themselves, they will ask for money for food, and if you offer them food they tell you to "F*%& off!". I don't feel much compassion for them. By no means is it easy being homeless, you have a heck of a hill to climb, but its possible.
As far as asking how many homeless I speak to or read about, I serve food to the homeless around the holidays those which most are very thankful for the warm food and warm place to spend some time and the good company. Many of them are men, some are women with children. Some are families.
My point isn't that homeless don't deserve anything, but there are people that give this idea that we should spend billions a year to feed and cloth and shelter homeless, when really we should be offering some sort of employment and perhaps low cost options to them. Not particularly free.

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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:02:50 -0400, "Sijuki"

And why is it that there is such a difference, that you notice the larger number of men? Is it that social programs are geared towards women? Is it that there is a larger percentage of men who are "mentally ill who have been thrown out of institutional care?
Or have we as a society made a large number of poor men "unemployable" through criminal convictions that are referred to as "youthful indiscretions" when they are done by the wealthy? Ask GWB & Bill Gates how their Drug infractions have hurt their access to capital and employment...... Just a thought.
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Sorry but I know someone who licked leukemia and has rheumatoid arthritis. Real estate agent so self employed and earns about $60k a year. No one will sell her health insurance.

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