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Just some recent news to consider when comparing CDN socialized health care to the US system.
--Geoff
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Calls for Access to Needed Health Care
May 23, 2004 http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/May2004/23/c6833.html "Ontario's recent decision to delist community-based physiotherapy from OHIP is merely the latest action in a troubling trend towards reduced access to needed physiotherapy services across Canada."
Alberta Premier Ralph Klein to roll out details of health-care reform plan Jun. 29, 2004 http://www.medbroadcast.com/health_news_details.asp?news_idC05&news_channel_id 15 "Klein, long known for pushing more private care options as a way to rescue a public system collapsing under its costs, ratcheted up the rhetoric recently when he suggested Alberta's changes to health delivery in Alberta may violate the Canada Health Act. ... "Our focus is entirely on strengthening the public system at a time when substantial underfunding by the Ottawa Liberals over the past several years has put health systems from coast to coast into perilous situations," he said.
http://www.mercerhr.com/knowledgecenter/reportsummary.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1138545 "On 18 May 2004, Greg Sorbara, the Ontario Minister of Finance, tabled his government's first budget. The budget focused on health care and education. As widely anticipated, the government introduced a so-called premium which will be administered as a personal income tax. This additional tax is referred to as the Ontario Health Premium" ("OHP"). In addition, certain services currently covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan ("OHIP"), such as chiropractic services and routine optometry examinations, will be delisted. Many of the changes introduced under the budget will have an impact on employers.
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Geoff, why is someone in a bordertown, like yours, so interested in the Canadian medical system? I'll bet that you're crossing into Windsor to get your less expensive prescription medication! Shame! ;-)
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Sting Ray wrote:

Cute!
Actually, I'm just an inquisitive guy.
--Geoff
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Geoff wrote:

http://www.medbroadcast.com/health_news_details.asp?news_idC05&news_channel_id 15
http://www.mercerhr.com/knowledgecenter/reportsummary.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1138545
Seems like maybe a year ago that I heard a radio report that said that the a law had just been passed in Canada (can't recall if it was federal or for a particular province) requiring that clinics be maintained with licensed nurses to administer certain drugs (heroine?) by needle to addicts off the street so that they did not get certain diseases from dirty needles, etc. What idiots people are becoming!
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
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Healthcare is administered provincially Bill. Your recollection is close though - a couple of provinces have decided that it's better to provide clean needles to addicts, rather than have them sharing needles (and diseases!) in shooting galleries. It's not a law, just a practice.
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Sting Ray wrote:

The report I heard siad that the places were staffed with nurses to administer the drugs - not just handing out clean needles - that much I do remember. I thought it was a legislated requirement (provincial or federal?), but maybe I heard wrong - in any case, law or no law, taxpayer money was being payed out to provide the "service" for those places that implemented the practice. Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
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wrote:

I think that the government's logic is that some incompetent & deluded nurse would "lower the number of addicts" just like we hear occasionally happening in hospitals around the world.
After all Euthanasia is "illegal" But only if it's caught right?
Gov't implements law allowing someone to become disgusted & frustrated with the system & then gov't washes their hands of the results when the inevitable results occur.
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Although the plan sounds like a waste, the US war on drugs hasn't gone all to well either.

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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:26:12 GMT, "Art"

Wasn't the war on drugs a fund raising effort for the police forces?
I'm always puzzled when one drug ( for example powdered cocaine or rock cocaine <crack>) is treated differently depending upon the target user group.
But I suppose whatever allows the police to strip search your girlfriends and frisk your wives to stop "evil dooers" has got to be good. :-)
Ahh... I should have gone into Law Enforcement..... The perks....
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Full_Name wrote:

Yeah, most of the women I see on 'Cops' are ones I'd want to strip search....NOT!
--Geoff
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On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:36:40 -0400, Geoff

the one's they enjoy "searching" sure as hell aren't going to be submitted to "Cops" for their partners to see.....
That's I'm thinking anyways. (probably wrong, but it sounds good no?)
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bill Putney wrote:

I think that you did.

Remember the old oil filter commercial "Pay a little now or a lot later"? The principle applies here. Pay a little now to provide clean needles and constant availability of rehab services. Or, pay a lot later to treat them and those they've infected when they have big, expensive diseases like Syphillis and AIDS.
It's a strategy known as "harm minimalization". The Netherlands example shows us it can be very effective at minimizing societal costs of drug abuse. It doesn't sit well with those who think drug abuse will cease to happen if they just make enough pious moral denouncements of drug addicts.
-DS
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And if that doesn't work, make the drug laws sricter! And if the pushers don't want to be arrested, disarm the rest of society! And if money laundering happens, limit how much cash people can hold! And, hey, using drug money to mount a legal defense is *wrong*, so confiscate assets before they're convicted! And if they somehow get off the hook, make 'em sue to get their assets back! Hang on, the legal procedures to recover the assets are publically available? Tell the libraries to shred that!
See how much we can improve society by stamping out drugs?
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
  Click to see the full signature.
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wrote:

I like your thinking Joe. Ever thought of a run for President?
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On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:00:42 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern"

Just my $0.02 Most CDN's have a choice of MD's & in emergencies they tend to have the service they need. (not the best but "usually" good enough)
Why am I in favor of a BASIC level of universal health care? I'll provide an example and you tell me what you think is the right answer:
A "poor" person with drug resistant TB stands in the DMV office coughing next to your wife and young child. Do you care? Your teenager goes out on a group date with some school friends. One of whom cannot afford full treatment for their syphilis which is now drug resistant because they only get ER care. Do you care yet?
There's being selfish, and then there's being "penny wise & pound foolish". I think you can surmise which category I put people in who cannot see the need for basic universal health care. Polio wasn't wiped out by only vaccinating those that could afford the vaccine.
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wrote:

Basic yes... which is usually able to be provided through medicare/caid. Plus there are several free clinics all over, especially metro areas. My stepmother is a pharmacist at one in Detroit. They have doctors and nurses there and dispense meds for free or low cost in some cases (low cost like $1). The only argument I say to that... not really an argument, but a thought really, is even if basic was provided what is to prevent someone from not caring enough to go see a doctor to find out they have the TB or syphillis and still able to spread it to your wife, child, or daughter? This is a country that has many lazy people, many people with too much 'pride' to go to a free clinic, or just too stubborn to ask for help. Just a thought. Not bunking ya.
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On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:00:39 -0400, "Sijuki"

the books right? ;-) Seriously though.
Sometimes I wonder how much it would have cost to have tested the western population for AIDS & then quarantined the infected persons in the 1980's.
I mean we "quarantine" paranoid schizophrenic's and violent rapists to protect society from their "illness" why do we not do the same for all ailments than can have such a widespread devastating effect?
I read somewhere that 80% of all new British AIDS cases result from "trips" to Africa. Remember what the US & Europe did when China, Hong Kong Toronto & Singapore had a SARS outbreak? How far did SARS spread into the US and Europe?
Just a thought.....
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Full_Name wrote:

Oh my gosh - the ACLU would have claimed that that was a violation of someone's rights and it never would have been allowed. So instead, millions suffer all in the name of protecting what then were falsely claimed as "the rights" of a few.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
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Don't you ever do any research before you post? The recession started during the last year of the Clinton administration not after Bush took office. It was stopped by about the first 1,000 day of the Bush administration. Whether you or Kerry like it or not the economy has grown for 11 STRAIGHT quarters since 2001. Payrolls and job have expanded for 11 straight months. Hourly wages are up 2% since Bush took office. Productivity has constantly grown over the past three years. The unemployment rate is 5.3%, lower than the 5.4% Bill Clinton was touting during his tenure. Inflation is almost non existent down 3% below Clinton time and down over 16% below Cater 18.8% inflation rate. Best of all. for the less fortunate in the US, their federal income tax rate was reduced by at least 1/3 and removed completely for the lowest wage earners by the Bush tax cuts that went into effect in 2003. Indeed 1.31 million jobs have been lost sine Bush took office but 1.14 million have been created. That is pretty good considering the 500 Billion loss to the economy caused by 9/11 and all that happened since Bush took office. Particularly when one looks how the trade deficit is growing every year as more more American sent THEIR jobs overseas by taking advantage of lower cost goods available on the market today because of the expanding world market
mike hunt
Art wrote:

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I'm not sure about the jobs or wages, but then I'm not too concerned with them right now since I'm going to college. I can give you all the unemployment data from when 91-2001, 91-6.8%, 92-7.5% 93-6.9%, 94 6.1%, 95-5.6%, 96-5.4%, 97-4.9%, 98-4.5%, 99-4.2%,00-4.0%, 01-4.8%. GDP was growing all throughout 92-00 years. In 01 it only grew by .3%, between 92 and 00 it grew an average of 3.29%. Inflation on the other hand stayed about the same for both CPI and GDP Deflator from 92-01. I'll be able to put up more stuff too..never thought these books would come in handy :P
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