Looking for a mid-size domestic car recommendation

Just my $0.02 Most CDN's have a choice of MD's & in emergencies they tend to have the service they need. (not the best but "usually" good enough)

Why am I in favor of a BASIC level of universal health care? I'll provide an example and you tell me what you think is the right answer:

A "poor" person with drug resistant TB stands in the DMV office coughing next to your wife and young child. Do you care? Your teenager goes out on a group date with some school friends. One of whom cannot afford full treatment for their syphilis which is now drug resistant because they only get ER care. Do you care yet?

There's being selfish, and then there's being "penny wise & pound foolish". I think you can surmise which category I put people in who cannot see the need for basic universal health care. Polio wasn't wiped out by only vaccinating those that could afford the vaccine.

I agree with a bit of what written in this portion

Not if you've got BUPA ( British Private health insurance) It allows for the 2 tier system to operate efficiently. Worked wonders for my In-laws to que jump when they needed to.

Here in Canada when we want quicker / more personal service we've got to travel to the US.

Any one that's truly happy with the CDN system either does that, or has been brainwashed into believing the propaganda that the politicians and health unions spread. (And yes that would be the same politicians who fly to the states for same day MRI scans etc)

I like the private choice of the US system. Though I do believe that a health "floor" should be provided for. i.e. ER & communicable conditions

I also agree with portions of the lower section

I think that some people's argument will be that it is impossible to "reduce the service level" for people with no service to begin with.

You've gotta get the Mrs working for either a Gov't agency or a pharaceutical company. Their plans are the world health care dream. My Brother in law pays $200.00 per month for a family of 6, MD's? his choice, MRI's? no more than 5 hours wait and no additional, drug coverage? 100% This is the Healthcare that everyone wants to have.

But then again he's got his post grad & hasn't been unemployed or sick.

What is a better question is why they spend tens of thousands locking up idiots who sell dope to each other. Out on the streets they could never afford health or dental care, but in the pen? You're paying for it ! Plus the cost of prison runs somewhere between $15 & $40 K per year per person. I know, not really all that much, but when you look at the levels of the US incarceration it begins to add up.

The best thing you can do for your health in the interim is: A) wear your seatbelt. B) Keep your weight within the ideal range

BUT most importantly.

C) Have a strong social network. (that way if you do lose insurance you'll have people to pressure those in power to guarantee your care).

For a thought, have you tried to join an automotive newsgroup? ;-)

PS the last one wasn't to play down the significance of what you wrote (it is usually an important election issue) but to try to bring a smile. Stress will make you ill.

Here's something from alt.jokes for everyone's weekday smile:

A car company can move its factories to Mexico and claim it's a free market. A toy company can outsource to a Chinese subcontractor and claim it's a free market. A major bank can incorporate in Bermuda to avoid taxes and claim it's a free market. We can buy HP Printers made in Mexico. We can buy shirts made in Bangladesh. We can purchase almost anything we want from many different countries

heaven help the elderly who dare to buy their prescription drugs from a Canadian (Or Mexico) pharmacy. That's called un-American!

And you think the pharmaceutical companies don't have a powerful lobby? Think again!

************************************************************************ Have a great week everybody, Get out & enjoy your car ! ************************************************************************

Just some recent news to consider when comparing CDN socialized health care to the US system.

--Geoff

Canadian Physiotherapy Association Calls for Access to Needed Health Care May 23, 2004

"Ontario's recent decision to delist community-based physiotherapy fromOHIP is merely the latest action in a troubling trend towards reduced accessto needed physiotherapy services across Canada."

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein to roll out details of health-care reform plan Jun. 29, 2004

"Klein, long known for pushing more private care options as a way to rescuea public system collapsing under its costs, ratcheted up the rhetoricrecently when he suggested Alberta's changes to health delivery in Albertamay violate the Canada Health Act.... "Our focus is entirely on strengthening the public system at a time when substantial underfunding by the Ottawa Liberals over the past several years has put health systems from coast to coast into perilous situations," he said.

"On 18 May 2004, Greg Sorbara, the Ontario Minister of Finance, tabled hisgovernment's first budget. The budget focused on health care and education.As widely anticipated, the government introduced a so-called premium whichwill be administered as a personal income tax. This additional tax isreferred to as the Ontario Health Premium" ("OHP"). In addition, certainservices currently covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan ("OHIP"),such as chiropractic services and routine optometry examinations, will bedelisted. Many of the changes introduced under the budget will have animpact on employers.

I think you'll find that the US's 'medical record', such as infant mortality, isn't as good as you think it is, despite all that (private) spending

DAS

I feel much better already... :-) So it's not only in the UK where people die because of hospitals' mistakes...

DAS

Declining market share suggests an overall erosion of competitiveness. It's not great performance to have a relatively small increase in numbers when the market has grown hugely.

If GM were still so great they'd have a much higher market share.

DAS

Re: Looking for a mid-size domestic car recommendation Group: alt.autos.ford Date: Wed, Aug 25, 2004, 1:59pm (EDT+5) From: snipped-for-privacy@nospam.co.uk (Dori=A0A=A0Schmetterling)

Declining market share suggests an overall erosion of competitiveness. It's not great performance to have a relatively small increase in numbers when the market has grown hugely. If GM were still so great they'd have a much higher market share. DAS

If they were making the cars domestic consumers really wanted they would still have over 50% of the domestic market. GM management sucks. Period. I don't care how many cars they make. They can't sell most of them without rebates.

Re: Looking for a mid-size domestic car recommendation Group: alt.autos.ford Date: Wed, Aug 25, 2004, 3:07pm (EDT+4) From: snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com (Art)

If they were making the cars domestic consumers really wanted they would still have over 50% of the domestic market. GM management sucks. Period. I don't care how many cars they make. They can't sell most of them without rebates.

I see you can't bring yourself to admit when you are wrong, easier to just try to change the subject. The fact is you are still wrong. Toyota and Honda build good cars as well and they too offer rebates. They too are loosing share to other some newer manufactures as well. The fact remains every manufacture is selling more cars in an ever expanding US market. ;)

mike hunt

Art wrote:

Basic yes... which is usually able to be provided through medicare/caid. Plus there are several free clinics all over, especially metro areas. My stepmother is a pharmacist at one in Detroit. They have doctors and nurses there and dispense meds for free or low cost in some cases (low cost like $1). The only argument I say to that... not really an argument, but a thought really, is even if basic was provided what is to prevent someone from not caring enough to go see a doctor to find out they have the TB or syphillis and still able to spread it to your wife, child, or daughter? This is a country that has many lazy people, many people with too much 'pride' to go to a free clinic, or just too stubborn to ask for help. Just a thought. Not bunking ya.

"Steve B." wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I will say problem #1 with drug costs is the unregulated increase in prices for drugs. Sure it costs millions and millions to come up with a drug and get it approved by the FDA... but they get 7 years to make their money back on it... most big hit drugs they make their R&D money back within the first year. Its not til a generic comes out that the price can drop. But that is

7 years down the road. Next time you go to the pharmacy to get your top of the line drug.. ask what the cash cost is for a customer. Most are astonishing. Granted this is a free market economy, but drugs shouldn't be able to be hiked that much. Also doctors keep charging more and more because they want to be paid more. Not that I am saying a doctor doesn't deserve a decent paycheck, he does, especially the guy that is supposed to be removing the lump on your kidney/liver/pancreas/ovary/testicle and you want him to make sure he does it right. But there is a limit to making good money and causing your patients to go broke. Of course... I will stop there and say this... a big portion of what they charge (the doctors) is to pay for the outrageous insurance premiums they must carry to protect themselves from malpractice... cause its amazing how much they have to pay. Its not just the doctor that left the scalpel in your abdomen on accident. Its the doctor that didn't order one test and you got sick from the thing that test would have tested for and now you sue him for millions of dollars. Its the reckless abandon that people in the U.S. (and I believe spreading across Europe) to sue someone for anything. There are many diseases and almost as many tests to check for them. It shouldn't be required for a doctor to HAVE to order all those tests in fear that he might miss one and you become sick and sue him. The legal system is the first step for reform, and then slowly reform the medical society. If anyone wants some good reading on such issues... check out

"The Death of Common Sense" by Philip K. Howard & "The Collapse of Common Good" by Philip K. Howard

Both are very good books, definately a slight eye opener for some and solidation of ideas for others.

Simple solution to that. You've still got capital punishment laws on the books right? ;-) Seriously though.

Sometimes I wonder how much it would have cost to have tested the western population for AIDS & then quarantined the infected persons in the 1980's.

I mean we "quarantine" paranoid schizophrenic's and violent rapists to protect society from their "illness" why do we not do the same for all ailments than can have such a widespread devastating effect?

I read somewhere that 80% of all new British AIDS cases result from "trips" to Africa. Remember what the US & Europe did when China, Hong Kong Toronto & Singapore had a SARS outbreak? How far did SARS spread into the US and Europe?

Just a thought.....

Interesting question for the group. Since the 1950's when Mercedes copied the US car designs have any other marque's or markets copied US design?

I love the Caddy SedanDeVille DTS & DHS but the styling???? Who the hell was in charge of that fiasco???

"Klein, long known for pushing more private care options as a way to rescue> a public system collapsing under its costs, ratcheted up the rhetoric> recently when he suggested Alberta's changes to health delivery in Alberta> may violate the Canada Health Act.> ...

"On 18 May 2004, Greg Sorbara, the Ontario Minister of Finance, tabled his> government's first budget. The budget focused on health care and education.> As widely anticipated, the government introduced a so-called premium which> will be administered as a personal income tax. This additional tax is> referred to as the Ontario Health Premium" ("OHP"). In addition, certain> services currently covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan ("OHIP"),> such as chiropractic services and routine optometry examinations, will be> delisted. Many of the changes introduced under the budget will have an> impact on employers. Seems like maybe a year ago that I heard a radio report that said that the a law had just been passed in Canada (can't recall if it was federal or for a particular province) requiring that clinics be maintained with licensed nurses to administer certain drugs (heroine?) by needle to addicts off the street so that they did not get certain diseases from dirty needles, etc. What idiots people are becoming!

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

I don't trust bulk statistics thrown out like that. There are too many examples of groups with a vested interest in having the results come out a certain way intentionally mishandling the numbers.

For example, statistics are often cited on how certain ethnic groups or nationalities are predicted to be the voting majority (vs. "white" Americans) in the U.S. by such and such a year in the near future. The eye opener comes when you find out that the people putting the statistics together count an individual who meets, say, two (or three) of the criteria for being put into a certain group as two (or three) people in that minority and not one, whereas each individual who meets the criteria for the group that they want to intentionally undercount (i.e. caucasians) are counted as one person. The people publishing the results have a vested interest in cionvincing politicians and others to cater to certain favored groups. It's one thing to report the truth of what the reality is, but it is not acceptable to skew the results like that to trick the public.

Similarly, they re-classified certain sets of symptoms and diseases as AIDS (broadened the definition) to inflate the growth rate of AIDS cases from year to year. Again - the rates of AIDS new AIDS cases were changing, and indeed, maybe the criteria shoudl have been broadened, but it is not right to report shifts in the numbers like that without making it clear that the criteria were changed in teh numbers being compared - IOW, if the criteria changed, then when statistical rate changes are reported, they either need to be adjusted or normalized for the effects of the change in criteria, or, at minimum, it needs to be stated that the criteria changed from one statistic to the next so that people know that they are not an apples to apples comparison - but that information is **NEVER** disclosed when the numbers are thrown out to the public.

I am not saying that such sleight of hand techniques are the case with the 100k hospital-caused deaths per year statistic increasing to 200k, but knowing the politics of those pushing the "our medical system is awful and therefore we need to go to socialized medicine" agenda, I am very skeptical of the numbers that they throw out. What were the criteria? Did the criteria change? Did reporting methods and accuracy change to falsely skew the numbers (either over-reporting or under-reporting on either end of the study? etc., etc....

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

B I N G O ! ! ! !

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")